Does tznious depend on how pretty you are?

heidi

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:20 pm

marina wrote:

Well, isn’t it? Isn’t the idea to make sure no one woman stands out? Especially to a man who is not her husband? In other words, make everyone as equally pretty as possible. Without realizing it, you’ve articulated quite well the communism of tsnius.

So I totally agree with this.
In my ideal made up in my head world women over a certain age or a certain weight limit could wear leggings and a ponytail bc really now, who's looking at them?!?

Fox

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:20 pm

amother wrote:

This is an ORTHODOX site, Marina. We believe in halacha. And yes, the halachos of tznuis.

Communism can be found over on KGB.org.

Alas, Vladimir has a similar rule about not discussing LGBT topics. Just for different reasons.

amother

Sapphire

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:21 pm

Fox wrote:

Hmmm. Going to have to think about this.

Are women less provocative when they are all equally provocative? Or do beauty and s-xuality exist on a separate plane where some animals will always be more equal than others? Does tznius defy or enshrine the maiden/mother/crone archetype? This sounds like it's heading for serious Camille Paglia territory, and my brain is too mushy tonight for that stuff.

I think this question is easily answered.

Head over to the Playboy mansion. All women there are quite provacative, I am sure.
So of course, no man would be turned on there, correct?

amother

Orange

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:22 pm

marina wrote:

I have yet to hear of a normative group in Judaism that encourages anyone to hide or diminish their natural beauty. Tanach and Talmud have numerous characters that are described as physically beautiful, yet are also pious. So no, it doesn't seem to be a goal of tznius.

Fox

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:22 pm

heidi wrote:

So I totally agree with this.
In my ideal made up in my head world women over a certain age or a certain weight limit could wear leggings and a ponytail bc really now, who's looking at them?!?

Wow! That is really sad. Are you going to feel the same way when you're 70, I wonder. Will you be okay with having been des-xualized because you're no longer at the peak of fertility?

amother

Sapphire

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:24 pm

amother wrote:

Exactly Orange. Women and girls are encourage to be refined but beautiful. Clean, well-dressed, but not gaudy and eye-catching. Hair should be styled to suit the wearer, and clothing should be fitted but not fitting.

honeymoon

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:24 pm

marina wrote:

Most of us are products of the way tznius was taught to us. It was shoved down our throats in a most horrible manner while minimizing the mitzva to inches and colors. If we practice the mitzva of tznius this way then you are one hundred percent right. Communism it is.

But if we practice tznius in the way it was intended to be practiced, as an expression of our inner beauty then it is hardly a communistic way of living. In that utopian world, all the "chumros" of inches, colors and fabrics become irrelevant and we can each be b'tznius in the way in which our own souls feel at peace.

amother

Natural

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:25 pm

I’ve had a similar question, especially with all the thin t-shirt material dresses that were in last year. I am busty, like 36G type. I felt that wearing some of those dresses really accentuated my upper body. I got into a discussion with my husband about whether my figure is inherently less tznius than someone who is flatter on top. Am I supposed to hide all curves? There are many style I need to avoid because they are just so unflattering or (to the other extreme) eye catching.

Fox

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:29 pm

amother wrote:

(Even if you happen to be a 70 year-old bubby pulling her fruit cart to market.)

I'm actually a 58-year-old bubbe whose kids refuse to allow her to use a "bubbe cart." I have pointed out the people in NY and Israel use bubbe carts, and these children crane their necks and say, "Does it look like we live in NY or Israel?" So no bubbe cart for me!

amother

Plum

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:30 pm

amother wrote:

I wouldn’t say your body is inherently less tznius, just that you need to find the right clothing that is appropriate for you. The same dress can be perfectly tzniusdik on one person and too tight on another.

I have a similar issue on the lower half of my body. Certain styles are too tight and accentuating on my wider hips. You don’t have to hide your body, but try not to over accentuate. Find what looks beautiful and appropriate for you!

marina

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:31 pm

amother wrote:

Really? What abt those groups where all girls must wear their hair in a pony or have it be a certain length or same sheitel style for women or some hair colors are not acceptable or can’t wear tailored clothing bc too form fitting or everyone must wear skirt four inches past knee - what is all that but an attempt to make everyone look the same? Literally the vast majority of chareidi and chassidishe schools are like this, let’s not pretend.

Fox

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:32 pm

sequoia wrote:

Ha!

Ok actually it’s not funny, it’s really sad. So many LGBQT families and individuals have had to flee the country.

Excellent point! I should have made it clear my point was to make fun of Putin's well-known homophobia (and based on my reading, he seems to truly be homophobic, not just anti-LGBT).

amother

Sapphire

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:33 pm

When it comes to tznuis, I feel there are three areas that tznuis needs to be broken down into:

1. Basic halacha
2. Individual body type
3. Personal feelings

Basic halacha is not to wear a see-through shirt, mini-skirt, etc. Things that everyone knows as tznuis.

Body type is more of a gray area. Those of us who are more curvy often can't wear the same things that those who are thin and flat-chested can, simply because on us it would appear more s*xually provocative. Every person has to dress according to their own body type. "Refinement" is not always something that can be spelled out in inches.

Personal feelings are for things that are neither basic halacha or even pertaining to body type. It can have to do with style or color or just the way an outfit makes a person feel like behaving. If it doesn't feel right, it ain't right for that person.

Fox

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:35 pm

marina wrote:

I think that's more a function of valuing conformity versus tznius. True, tznius is always used as one of the reasons to enforce conformity, but even the people making the argument realize it's a weak one.

Conformity is an entirely different idea, and while it has some merits (particularly for teenage girls), we have plenty of evidence in our society that conformity and tznius don't necessarily go hand-in-hand.

amother

Orange

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:36 pm

marina wrote:

I'm talking about natural beauty. I'm not aware of any group that encourages girls to cut eyelashes that are too long, dye hair of any color, etc. Guess what? I can look at an entire class of girls in a chassidish girl school and pick out the prettiest ones (my own opinion obviously). And so could you.

marina

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:39 pm

Fox wrote:

Wow! That is really sad. Are you going to feel the same way when you're 70, I wonder. Will you be okay with having been des-xualized because you're no longer at the peak of fertility?

Please recognize, Fox, that you attempt to reframe tznius as an empowering affirmation of female s-xuality *only* because the old fashioned reasons for tznius (protect the men) are no longer acceptable to your feminist mindset.

No matter how much you rail against feminism and social norms, they permeate every aspect of our lives, even the way we explain halachos.

honeymoon

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:40 pm

marina wrote:

You brought up a very valid point. I don't think it is an attempt to make everyone look the same as much as the ones promoting these practices are clueless as to how to teach our youth to look refined and beautiful at the same time. Out of sheer desperation and stupidity they teach the technical rules as halacha leaving the young women scratching their heads in confusion and anger. Which quicky turns into disgust. And rightfully so.

marina

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:42 pm

amother wrote:

and when you find those girls, be sure to talk to them so they can share with you how the teachers and principals make them crazy about tznius way more than their classmates.

Fox

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:43 pm

marina wrote:

Okay, unroll this a little bit for me. I don't necessarily disagree with you; maybe my brain is just too fried to process it tonight.