Does tznious depend on how pretty you are?

honeymoon

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 11:45 pm

Fox wrote:

I think that's more a function of valuing conformity versus tznius. True, tznius is always used as one of the reasons to enforce conformity, but even the people making the argument realize it's a weak one.

Conformity is an entirely different idea, and while it has some merits (particularly for teenage girls), we have plenty of evidence in our society that conformity and tznius don't necessarily go hand-in-hand.

Not only don't they go hand in hand but more often than not, it backfires. Conformity locks in an individuals need for self expression and when not forced to conform the person will toss the self made conformity rules along with basic halacha. And then we wonder who is to blame.

amother

Sapphire

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 11:48 pm

Fox wrote:

I think what a lot of you are missing is that many of these people who are of the communities where hair is shoulder length or in a ponytail, and the skirts are the halachic 4 in" below the knee, etc., are actually doing what they do because they feel it increases their connection with Hashem -- not because they are part of a society that has these "rules" to control them. Let's not take Yiddishkeit out of the equation.

I say this because I belong to the chasidishe community, and the people I know can be divided into three groups, though members from one group can sometimes hop into another...

1. Those who are really trying to live a spiritual life. The people from this group tend to be more careful with the letter of the law, using it a vehicle of spirituality, helping them to find connection with Hashem. This group appreciates the community standards, in general.

2. Those who more drawn towards the outside world of glitter and glam, and are bucking off the reign of "rules," pushing the boundaries, feeling caged in by the standards. They want to be chasidishe, but on their own modern terms. These are the people who are embittered by the "rules."

3. Those of who want to be drawn more towards our spiritual side but admit to battling with the materialistic side that taunts us in this day. We are people who appreciate the community standards, but admit that they are sometimes uncomfortable. But uncomfortable doesn't mean wrong. And I think that's important to realize.

Point being: When you look at a community from the outside, it may seem oppressive to you. But to those of us inside, it can be something of beauty. It all depends on your personal worldview. (And also if you are reaching upwards or outwards.)

honeymoon

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 11:55 pm

amother wrote:

I think what a lot of you are missing is that many of these people who are of the communities where hair is shoulder length or in a ponytail, and the skirts are the halachic 4 in" below the knee, etc., are actually doing what they do because they feel it increases their connection with Hashem -- not because they are part of a society that has these "rules" to control them. Let's not take Yiddishkeit out of the equation.

I say this because I belong to the chasidishe community, and the people I know can be divided into three groups, though members from one group can sometimes hope into another...

1. Those who are really trying to live a spiritual life. The people from this group tend to be more careful with the letter of the law, using it a vehicle of spirituality, helping them to find connection with Hashem. This group appreciates the community standards, in general.

2. Those who more drawn towards the outside world of glitter and glam, and are bucking off the reign of "rules," pushing the boundaries, feeling caged in by the standards. They want to be chasidishe, but on their own modern terms. These are the people who are embittered by the "rules."

3. Those of who want to be drawn more towards our spiritual side but admit to battling with the materialistic side that taunts us in this day. We are people who appreciate the community standards, but admit that they are sometimes uncomfortable. But uncomfortable doesn't mean wrong. And I think that's important to realize.

Point being: When you look at a community from the outside, it may seem oppressive to you. But to those of us inside, it can be something of beauty. It all depends on your personal worldview. (And also if you are reaching upwards or outwards.)

You seem to have forgotten category #4.

4. Those of us who are drawn to our spiritual side and find our spirituality in things other than inches and community standards. We don't feel embittered by the "rules". We just choose to disregard them and are perfectly content.

amother

Firebrick

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:00 am

amother wrote:

I think what a lot of you are missing is that many of these people who are of the communities where hair is shoulder length or in a ponytail, and the skirts are the halachic 4 in" below the knee, etc., are actually doing what they do because they feel it increases their connection with Hashem -- not because they are part of a society that has these "rules" to control them. Let's not take Yiddishkeit out of the equation.

I say this because I belong to the chasidishe community, and the people I know can be divided into three groups, though members from one group can sometimes hope into another...

1. Those who are really trying to live a spiritual life. The people from this group tend to be more careful with the letter of the law, using it a vehicle of spirituality, helping them to find connection with Hashem. This group appreciates the community standards, in general.

2. Those who more drawn towards the outside world of glitter and glam, and are bucking off the reign of "rules," pushing the boundaries, feeling caged in by the standards. They want to be chasidishe, but on their own modern terms. These are the people who are embittered by the "rules."

3. Those of who want to be drawn more towards our spiritual side but admit to battling with the materialistic side that taunts us in this day. We are people who appreciate the community standards, but admit that they are sometimes uncomfortable. But uncomfortable doesn't mean wrong. And I think that's important to realize.

Point being: When you look at a community from the outside, it may seem oppressive to you. But to those of us inside, it can be something of beauty. It all depends on your personal worldview. (And also if you are reaching upwards or outwards.)

And what about group #4? Those in the community who are trying to live a spiritual life, but possess different parameters that would allow them to do just that. Instead of being able to explore those, they're forced to follow the manmade spiritual rules set forth upon them by other men. The frustration and disconnection to yiddishkeit that follows is what subconsciously leads them to the materialism and to the outside world of glitter and glam you've described above.

You're patting yourself on your back, but it's precisely people of your mindset, who praise the group you're in, and disparage the others, that is pushing people in your community away from yiddishkeit.

I'll quote your words "It depends on your personal worldview". There are those who believe that communism is something of beauty too....

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:03 am

[quote="marina"]Look it’s like Lori Palatnik insisting that she is not going to hire a pretty young girl to clean or babysit for her.
http://www.aish.com/sp/lal/92948634.html
/quote]

She's not wrong.

Marina, you seem like the movie-watching type (and I'll admit I've also been); there is a Ben Sandler movie that is made about this specific issue. A beautiful Mexican cleaning lady comes to work in his home, and right behind his wive's back, he begins to cheat.

People are people are people.

Temptation is real. Be realistic.

Fox

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:08 am

marina wrote:

Look it’s like Lori Palatnik insisting that she is not going to hire a pretty young girl to clean or babysit for her.
http://www.aish.com/sp/lal/92948634.html

Some women don’t want to feel self concsious by being around women who are more attractive so they try to equalize everyone. In that video she literally advises women to hire based on who looks less pretty and young.

So I interpret that as simply another way in which modern women capitulate to the de facto fertility cult of beauty. In other words, "I'm not willing and/or able to impersonate a woman at the peak of beauty and fertility, so I'm going to make sure I don't keep of them around to tempt my husband or make me feel bad."

Obviously, she knows her DH better than I do; maybe he happens to be particularly susceptible to beautiful young woman. There are certainly plenty of men with that weakness.

But absent an identified weakness on her DH's part, she's fighting a losing battle. Eventually, virtually every woman she and her DH come into contact with will be closer to peak beauty than she will.

I recently read a line that said, "If you're not beautiful, work on being valuable." It wasn't talking about not grooming yourself, etc. It was making the point that there comes a time for all women when they will no longer be at their peak beauty, and that making yourself "valuable," however you choose to define that, can compensate for the loss of beauty.

If a woman has made herself "valuable," she can reflect on the beauty of her youth with a sense of BTDT -- not a sense that she has to violently stave off the passage of time or compete with younger, beautiful women in order to secure her place in society.

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:09 am

amother wrote:

\Those in the community who are trying to live a spiritual life, but possess different parameters that would allow them to do just that.

In that case, I would dare to say that the "different parameters" for spirituality are "spiritual parameters" in disguise. We call that the yetzor hara.

A pull away from halacha is to pull away away from emesdiga ruchniyus, and to paint new "parameters" in cheerful, feel-good colors to delude oneself into believing they are nuturing their neshamos.

Halacha is halacha is halacha.

I'm not referring to things that make a person feel alive when there is no halacha at stake. Buy modern furniture and paint your home whatever color you'd like. Take voice and dance classes. Act on stage for women. Nuture your own spark. That is lovely and beautiful, and can be done while living a spiritually rich life.

marina

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:11 am

[quote="amother"]

marina wrote:

Look it’s like Lori Palatnik insisting that she is not going to hire a pretty young girl to clean or babysit for her.
http://www.aish.com/sp/lal/92948634.html
/quote]

She's not wrong.

Marina, you seem like the movie-watching type (and I'll admit I've also been); there is a Ben Sandler movie that is made about this specific issue. A beautiful Mexican cleaning lady comes to work in his home, and right behind his wive's back, he begins to cheat.

People are people are people.

Temptation is real. Be realistic.

How hot would the pool guy have to be for you to have 5ex with him?

This question, to most normal people, is as bizarre as how fabulous would that diamond have to be for you to steal it.

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:13 am

Fox wrote:

But absent an identified weakness on her DH's part, she's fighting a losing battle. Eventually, virtually every woman she and her DH come into contact with will be closer to peak beauty than she will.

That was a great post Fox, but I do want to point out your flaw here:

It isn't about "every woman" they will come into contact with. It has to do with a beautiful woman practically living in the house together with the family. Full-time, or even part-time cleaning help are in the home for hours and hours and hours, and many times interact with the family in a comfortable, easy-going manner. They are in an intimate setting.

It has to do with the unique setup, more than the beauty. The beauty just aggravates the set-up and turns it into a potential trap.

amother

Firebrick

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:15 am

amother wrote:

So if I follow your line of thought, I either get my spirituality from having my skirts span 4" below my knee, or have my hair no longer than shoulder length, or else I'm dealing with the Yetzer Hora.

You're making my point for me - you're highlighting exactly what I've said earlier about your type of communities. If you're a person in the community whose spiritual needs are not met by NON HALACHIC enforced standards (I.e. the skirt and hair lengths), you must be dealing with the Yetzer Hora. No other options exist.

(And to clarify just in case you don't understand, nothing in this thread was referring to Halacha. It was chumros and community standards that were being discussed.)

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:20 am

marina wrote:

How hot would the pool guy have to be for you to have 5ex with him?

This question, to most normal people, is as bizarre as how fabulous would that diamond have to be for you to steal it.

Marina, you're asking the wrong questions. The right questions are:

Will I be exposed to the person in a consistent, ongoing manner?
Is the setting intimate, personal, comfortable for me?
Does this person have a natural s*x appeal?
Is my s*d drive healthy, in working order?

A pool guy who comes once a month has much less chance of developing an affair with a woman because they don't have an ongoing relationship.

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:23 am

amother wrote:

To be clear, I was talking about a person who was raised within the community, not someone from a community with different standards. While I was taught that the points mentioned ARE halacha, you are calling them chumrah. Either way, a person who keeps certain standards but then drops them is yes, falling into the hands of the yetzor hara.

A person who has never accepted those standards upon himself doesn't have that issue.

DrMom

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:27 am

amother wrote:

So anyone who moves from a very chumra-dik hashkafa to a less chumra-dik hashkafa is falling into the hands of the yetzor hara?

amother

Firebrick

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:35 am

amother wrote:

A child is never in the position of accepting those standards upon himself. It was enforced upon him. As he or she matures, they themselves should be the ones deciding what spirituality speaks to them. By choosing what speaks to them is in no way falling into the hands of the yetzor hora.

Disclaimer - all of the below is referring to Chumros or standards, not halachos.

Being forced to live a life of false spirituality that does not speak to you, is not Yiddishkeit. Yiddishkeit in part means introspection, reflections and doing things that bring you yourself closer to Hashem. It does not include doing things that bring others closer to Hashem and have no meanings for you.

It is precisely when people are forced to do that - live a kind of spirituality that speaks to others but not themselves - that push people away from yiddishkeit. It is precisely doing just that, that leads people into the hands of the yetzer hora.

I am not you, you are not me. My mother is not me, nor I am my mother. Each of us are individuals, and it is incumbent upon each of individually to find a spiritual path that uplifts our life, enriches our yiddishkeit and brings us closer to Hashem. Living a life that spiritually works for you but not me, doesn't do any of the above.

Fox

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:40 am

amother wrote:

It isn't about "every woman" they will come into contact with. It has to do with a beautiful woman practically living in the house together with the family. Full-time, or even part-time cleaning help are in the home for hours and hours and hours, and many times interact with the family in a comfortable, easy-going manner. They are in an intimate setting.

It has to do with the unique setup, more than the beauty. The beauty just aggravates the set-up and turns it into a potential trap.

Excellent point! You can see how familiar I am with the world of nannies and housekeepers, lol!

Familiarity breeds contempt, but sometimes familiarity just breeds.

But now I'm curious about this pool boy that Marina has conjured up! Of course, with my luck, I'd get the pool boy who sneaks into my bedroom to lovingly caress my handbags . . .

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:42 am

DrMom wrote:

So anyone who moves from a very chumra-dik hashkafa to a less chumra-dik hashkafa is falling into the hands of the yetzor hara?

If someone has traded in their Tehillim for a smartphone, then yes.

If someone has married into a different community, where different things are emphasized, not necessarily.

In general though, the typical person in a chasidishe community who is just bucking the standards is not doing so for spiritually elevated reasons.

It's time to stop beating around the bush and face reality. Somebody who wants to leave behind the 4" standard for a skirt that brushes her knees and trade in her synthetic, hat-covered sheitel for a long and flowing, waist-length sheitel -- is not doing it because her neshama is guiding her that way.

Something's guiding her. But it ain't something good.