Does tznious depend on how pretty you are?

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:47 am

amother wrote:

A child is never in the position of accepting those standards upon himself. It was enforced upon him. As he or she matures, they themselves should be the ones deciding what spirituality speaks to them. By choosing what speaks to them is in no way falling into the hands of the yetzor hora.

Disclaimer - all of the below is referring to Chumros or standards, not halachos.

Being forced to live a life of false spirituality that does not speak to you, is not Yiddishkeit. Yiddishkeit in part means introspection, reflections and doing things that bring you yourself closer to Hashem. It does not include doing things that bring others closer to Hashem and have no meanings for you.

It is precisely when people are forced to do that - live a kind of spirituality that speaks to others but not themselves - that push people away from yiddishkeit. It is precisely doing just that, that leads people into the hands of the yetzer hora.

I am not you, you are not me. My mother is not me, nor I am my mother. Each of us are individuals, and it is incumbent upon each of individually to find a spiritual path that uplifts our life, enriches our yiddishkeit and brings us closer to Hashem. Living a life that spiritually works for you but not me, doesn't do any of the above.

I actually agree with what you said. However, I believe you are missing one important part. We DID choose our nisyonos in life. Our neshamos picked out everything we would face in this world and into which family/community/etc. we would belong.

The challenge, therefore, is not to just find your own spirituality, but to find your own spirituality within the world you were born into.

amother

Firebrick

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 12:57 am

amother wrote:

If someone has traded in their Tehillim for a smartphone, then yes.

If someone has married into a different community, where different things are emphasized not necessarily.

In general though, the typical person in a chasidishe community who is just bucking the standards is not doing so for spiritually elevated reasons.

It's time to stop beating around the bush and face reality. Somebody who wants to leave behind the 4" standard for a skirt that brushes her knees and trade in her synthetic, hat-covered sheitel for a long and flowing, waist-length sheitel -- is not doing it because her neshama is guiding her that way.

Something's guiding her. But it ain't something good.

In general though, the typical person in a chassidishe community who is just bucking the standards is doing it because chumros were unwillingly enforced upon her and she was taught that this was the only emes'dig way, so she is running away from it all.

Although I rephrased your words, I personally wouldn't use this stereotype at all. While there are some who do as you describe, there are equal amounts who move to other communities to find their spiritual comfort zone. You may not be aware of the numbers of them, because the community prefers to not acknowledge them. Instead the prefer to parade around those who do go off to the extreme to use them as 'proof' or tools for their propaganda. The profess that this what happens when you drop their conformities, and its 'proof' that their chumros are what keeps yiddishkeit intact.

Honestly, it's time for you to face reality. There are plenty of people to whom focusing intensely on the outer coverings of the body, does not provide any form of spirituality. Leaving it behind to find other means of personal spirituality, is a step closer to serving the Yetzer Tov and Hashem.

amother

Firebrick

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 1:07 am

amother wrote:

That is your own belief, and not the words of Torah guides and mentors. You cannot find your own spirituality in a community where conformity to chumros is enforced. The challenge therefore is to be honest and true to oneself, and find the right place where one can grow spiritually in the utmost. Its very tough to leave all you've ever known behind and move on in life. It's easier to stay put, and put up with some stuff, than to do just that. But that limits your growth, it saps your strengths and in the long run, you don't grow much.

The challenge of finding your true self and finding what makes you personally grow and connect to Hashem is much greater than just going about and doing whatever you've been taught. It's so much easier to submit yourself to the ideals that you were taught all your life, than to go out there and start from the beginning to find the Torah ideals and spiritualities that satisfy your inner yearnings.

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 1:27 am

You say it is easier to submit oneself to the ideals they were raised with than to move away and do as they wish. I posit that it is more difficult -- and more praiseworthy than both situations -- to stay within the ideals and to find meaning within them. It is easy to find "meaning" in the new and novel.

Allow me to add another layer to this conversation, and I pray you are accepting this as a meeting of minds and not a smash-battle.

Though I am chasidishe now, and am very well aware of all extremes in the community, I am a BT. Not just any BT, the BT from the thread about muslims.

I know what it is to walk away from how you've been raised. I know what it is to set yourself on a different path. It is hard, but there is an enchantment that draws you in.

Now, when it comes to people who leave the way they've been raised, I find there is ONE reason and one reason ONLY for their leaving:

Anger.

Anger that is projected on religion. Anger that is caused by people. Not by religion. People who practice religion in a specific manner.

The mind muddies the waters, causing the brain to believe that the religion is the reason they were mistreated by people who practiced that religion. But so often, at least in terms of the heimishe community, the religion has, in reality, zero fault in the rousing of hurt and anger. It just goes along, as a package deal.

What that means, is that the person walking away from the people who hurt him, walks away from the standards that that person appeared to have lived by. The baby is dumped with the bathwater.

So yes, I do believe the yetzor hara is smuggling into the person's brain. He's saying, "cast away your chasidishkeit because someone hurt you. It's all religion's fault."

And that person believes him.

And they go on to live a more meaningful life -- in the sense that because they removed themself from the anger/hurt-rousing people, they become more healthy. But their neshama is silently crying. Wanting to adhere to standards of which they are accustomed. Wanted to be free from hurt and anger -- but to be frum in the way it was meant to be.

Mommyg8

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 1:33 am

amother wrote:

But what if spirituality IS tznius? In what way will a person grow if they leave tznius behind?

Now I love the way everyone's referencing four inch below the knee and shoulder length hair, but we all know that's not the issue. I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but to be perfectly honest, your knees are not s-xy. It's the tight clothes, the bright colors, the cleavage, and uncovered hair that's the real tznius issue. And you can't convince me that when you trade in your tznius clothes for clothing that is less, you are upping your spirituality, because you're not.

As for conformity - every community has their own fashion and styles. In some it's black leggings, in some it's multiple body piercings and tri- color hair, and in some it's the style of the skirt. Which honestly has nothing to do with tznius.

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 1:36 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

*standing ovation*

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 1:41 am

Just a thought on hair:

I used to have hair that reached my hips. Beautiful, sun-streaked auburn hair. It was gorgeous. And it was an attention-getter. I'm not going to lie; boys loved it. It was magnetic.

But I was sick of it, and had it lopped off. Shoulder length.
I saw a dramatic change in behavior towards me.

All of a sudden, I was treated with more respect. Boys, instead of just flirting, began opening doors for me, etc. Because although I was very pretty, I wasn't just attractive. I commanded a sense of respect.

Hair, the female body in general, IS powerful. And tznuis was given to us as a tool to harness that power for own benefit and that of others.
The world is a better place when we are respected and not objectified.

Really, I don't know why more feminists don't jump on the tznuis bandwagon...

amother

Aubergine

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 1:43 am

OP, I was speaking with my therapist about this topic last week and had similar comments as you expressed.

I am an attractive petite woman with curves. I cannot explain how much I have struggled to accept myself at times because of the actions of others. The only time in married life haven’t been made to feel like I was lacking in middos and looking to snatch some other woman’s DH was postpartum with weight gain. I’ve long kept the hurt bottled up. I feel like I can’t win no matter how tznuis I dress or act. I’m not sure what prompted you to post but if you are feeling badly, please feel better. Know that you’re not alone.

amother

Smokey

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 5:24 am

amother wrote:

I grew up not religious at all. I wore shirt skirts, big necklines.. the whole deal. There were guys who objectified me but there were also guys who didn't. I think the MAIN issue is how you act... You can wear tznius clothes and act flirty. You can wear a short skirt and act decent. You will be treated the way you want to be treated. It's not about the length of your hair... I'm sure you started behaving differently towards men and therefore they treated you with more respect.

DVOM

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 5:51 am

Fox wrote:

No. Other posters have spoken about developing an innate sense of one's own worth, but I want to break that down just a little in terms of the OP's focus on youthful attractiveness.

One of the most important and uplifting messages we should take from tznius is its complete repudiation of society's natural parameters of s-xuality and s-xual attraction.

Women are biologically engineered to be most attractive at the peak of their fertility. In fact, studies show that women are typically rated as more attractive at the time of their cycle when they would be most likely to become pregnant.

Likewise, the men considered most objectively attractive display physical strength combined with the appropriate aggressiveness and place in the societal hierarchy to enable them to provide for their families.

So why would Hashem make s-xual appeal somewhat transient based on age and physical factors yet impose various halachos on us throughout our lives?

Partly because our s-x drives do more than simply enable reproduction; they also provide a way for couples to bond and express affection long after the reproductive role is over. Yet the secular world denies the s-xual nature of those who fall outside the window of reproductive ability or desirability.

How many times have we all heard someone ask why an elderly gadol is careful not to have too much contact with women? How many jokes have we all heard about bubbes who make sure their clothes aren't too short or too tight?

The Torah does not des-xualize people simply because they get old or are no longer in the midst of their childbearing years -- or because they somehow don't meet the secular world's standards for beauty in any given generation.

I actually find that very affirming and moving. You and I may strongly suspect that it's the rare 70-year-old bubbe who causes 20-year-old men to stumble over their feet when they catch sight of her pulling her cart to the fruit market, but the Torah makes no such assumptions. The Torah tells us, "Hey, don't be so sure! Sparks can fly! You never know what can happen, so be careful!"

And isn't that a nicer and healthier perspective than that of our surrounding society, where people are lauded for how long they can maintain the illusion -- sometimes with the help of expensive, dangerous surgical procedures -- that they're still at the peak of their fertility/virility?

Love this post, Fox!

DVOM

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 5:54 am

amother wrote:

If someone has traded in their Tehillim for a smartphone, then yes.

If someone has married into a different community, where different things are emphasized, not necessarily.

In general though, the typical person in a chasidishe community who is just bucking the standards is not doing so for spiritually elevated reasons.

It's time to stop beating around the bush and face reality. Somebody who wants to leave behind the 4" standard for a skirt that brushes her knees and trade in her synthetic, hat-covered sheitel for a long and flowing, waist-length sheitel -- is not doing it because her neshama is guiding her that way.

Something's guiding her. But it ain't something good.

What if someone traded their tehillim for a tehillim app on their smartphone? Wink

I think there are lots of ways to reach for a closer connection to god.

smilethere

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 6:53 am

honeymoon wrote:

You seem to have forgotten category #4.

4. Those of us who are drawn to our spiritual side and find our spirituality in things other than inches and community standards. We don't feel embittered by the "rules". We just choose to disregard them and are perfectly content.

'Spiritual side' sounds a bit hippy. In Judaism we can't do what makes us feel good spiritually or moral. We follow Halachah. In tznius there is halacha too - covering hair, knees, collar bone, not wearing bright colours etc.
If you are going to disregard the rules, then what is all this feel-good spirituality about, not orthodox judaism is my guess.