Losing my faith in humanity

southernbubby

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 3:19 pm

amother wrote:

southernbubby- can't help but think this is what comes from not giving boys career training.
OP- I'm so incredibly sorry for what you are going through. It sounds awful. My dh had a frum business partner who now owes us thousands of dollars...we lost a ton of money but it sounds like you lost even more and with him, he's even worse off, I don't think it was a scam. To be scammed by people you trusted that's just awful.

My dh and I had this conversation recently. Should we bother loaning people money anymore after the bad experience we had with his partner. Should we stop trusting people. We decided we still would but we would be careful to whom. There are a lot of good people in this world. They are often not the "big machers". We stay away from all the hock and we spend time with people who are simple good responsible people who aren't looking to become millionaires or be the most popular person. Trust me they exist.

Part of the problem is lack of ways to earn parnassa and another part is that the price of being frum keeps going up.

Lending is a mitzvah but it can and should involve cosigners, collateral, and kosher witnesses to the signing of the contract. No verbal agreement. Also people who can vouch for the lender's ability to pay. We are not obligated to simply trust.

Cheiny

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 8:51 pm

amother wrote:

We probably can, but like I said, I'm leaving those decisions for my husband.
It's just that I keep thinking about this all day...we have lost almost all our hard-earned savings, not to mention our credit may end up going down the drain as well. And all because people have LIED. This is not simply an investment gone wrong...this was a well-covered scam. And that, I can't forgive. I just don't understand how someone goes to sleep at night knowing he has robbed others. Ugh.

Perhaps you should take over and not “leave those decisions” to him. He sounds a bit naive to have been taken in not once but twice....did he discuss these financial ventures before he got involved with them?

amother

Ginger

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 8:57 pm

amother wrote:

Within the past few months, my husband was financially scammed by two completely unrelated, frum, people that I personally know. They are established members of the community, with a wife and children. They now owe us hundreds of thousands of dollars, with no way to pay it back.
My husband is dealing with the technicalities of all this...
I just need help restoring my faith in humanity. Right now, I don't know how I can trust anyone ever again. These were people we have known for a while, who we thought were trustworthy enough...

I wouldn't bother. I've been scammed and taken advantage of more by supposedly frum yidden than secular people. Honestly being disillusioned is a blessing because I don't make the same mistake of trusting my community. My DH has negative experiences too, and we cannot wait to move OOT.

The secular people I know act moral because they believe it's the right thing. Many (not all) of the "frum yidden" I know act that way because "it's what I was taught," "it's the letter of the law," "if I do THIS, HaShem won't care if I do THAT," or "I'm going to get a big reward in olam haba."

I realize this is not universal, and I realize this will probably offend or hurt many people who feel strongly otherwise, but this has been my experience. Honestly, sometimes I question why I stay frum. I believe in G-d, but I don't believe in humanity.

southernbubby

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 9:04 pm

amother wrote:

what are the rabbanim doing?

What would you like them to do? The news recently described the wonderful Otisville frum "community" where the "community" members are serving time for fraud. This was in reference to the sentencing of a high profile but non Orthodox Jew who could now practice his faith with ease due to the amount of frum people locked up there.
Would people really listen if rabbonim came out against committing fraud?

amother

Navy

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 9:50 pm

southernbubby- what would I like them to do.
I would like them to make as big a racket about ethics as they do about internet. I want them to make it clear that they don't respect people who lie and cheat. It bugs me that it doesn't seem to bother the shul rabbi if his board members don't report personal income and it's public knowledge. That shouldn't be ok. I want them to be willing to speak to the people who need to pay up. I want them not to make people get thrown in to jail out for crimes out to be tzadikim. Should I go on.

To the mother who wonders why she is frum. My dh is a bt- he has been disillusioned with the frum community for a while. He is frum solely because he believes in G-d and that G-d gave us the torah. Once our kids our out of school he wants to move to the middle of nowhere where he doesn't have to deal with a community. You are not the only one. far from it.

southernbubby

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 11:07 pm

amother wrote:

I hear you but it's like telling the congregation to lose weight.

Mommyg8

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 11:16 pm

Plenty of Rabbanim have spoken about the importance of being honest - I have heard them. These speeches don't make news because they are just not splashy enough Confused

.

And I think this thread should be cross referenced with the chasunah thread. People think it's OK to spend 70 or 100k on one night and it's fine because they have the money -but they are putting pressure on others by raising the bar.

southernbubby

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 11:52 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Plenty of Rabbanim have spoken about the importance of being honest - I have heard them. These speeches don't make news because they are just not splashy enough Confused

When I mentioned raising the bar, everyone pooh poohed it. Admittedly I blamed the poor for raising the bar when I should have said that because of the rich, the poor represent the minimum standard which is often too high for the middle class.
That being the case, I am not drawn to pidyon shevuim campaigns to raise money when a frum Jew is on trial for fraud. My parents were not frum but they valued honesty above all else. We didn't spend what we didn't have, that is, until credit cards were invented. Even still, they would not make a wedding that rivaled all weddings. We were happy to keep it simple.
I hate the way that American frum Jews have inflated the cost of being Jewish to such a degree that people have to swindle and steal in order to afford it.

amother

Goldenrod

Fri, Feb 22 2019, 12:32 am

I'm sorry this happened to you. We have recently been misled by a frum tenant which costed us thousands of dollars. I told the guy that all the frum people who won't be able to rent an apartment from us and others who were involved, will all be his doing. He couldn't care less. I used the same words as you; I totally lost trust in humanity.

The only thing we can do to make our world a better place is to act ethically in our own dealings and teach our children to do the same.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Feb 22 2019, 1:01 am

amother wrote:

If you and your institution depend on donations from these criminals, your moral compass gets thrown off.

There are lovely communities that might work for you. Every place has its challenges, of course, but it's worth going out of the box to find the right place. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.