This is why there is vaccine-hesitancy

nchr

Fri, May 03 2019, 11:37 am

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

The Danish Study only tested the mmr. And then the claim is made that vaccines (plural) don't cause autism.

Using individuals who had never been vaccinated when vaccines weren't yet discovered as placebos is ridiculous. Did they live in the same conditions we do? with clean water, proper sewage systems, adequate nutrition, availability of certain medications etc etc??? by far not a viable placebo group.

The Danish study specifically looked at the MMR because it was the vaccine that individuals had cried outrage over; however, the study looked in depth at other vaccines and the combinations of them throughout the 1999 to 2010 period. Vaccination in Denmark (at least at the time) was optional and free. The "placebos" were the unvaccinated children. There are many unvaccinated children and the rates of autism and auto immune disease and irrational bowel disorders are the same amongst the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

youngishbear

Fri, May 03 2019, 11:40 am

nchr wrote:

Some of the greatest contributors to higher rates of Autism include:

1. Children used to need to meet eight criteria to be diagnosed - today they only need to meet two: awkward social interactions and repetitive behaviors.

2. There is more awareness of the condition, which has lead to more treatments. Accordingly, autistic children can receive services they never used to be able to access. Also, there is not as large of a stigma today as once upon a time. How many people do you know with children locked on a porch or in a hidden room or even in a home? These were normal years ago, even for what would be called mild autism today.

3. Some people misuse and abuse the diagnosis to obtain free services or other therapies and schooling their children would not otherwise be able to access.

Quite possibly the most extensive medical review ever conducted was done on the MMR and autism using the Danish population. It included over half a million children born from 1999 through 2010. The test showed that there was no link between the MMR and autism, even in groups considered high risk for autism (I.e. older parents, a sibling with autism, etc.). The results showed the same rates of autism amongst children who were or were not vaccinated with the MMR. The study strongly supports that MMR vaccination does not increase the risk for autism, does not trigger autism in susceptible children, and is not associated with clustering of autism cases after vaccination.

We'd don't know what causes Autism. Science does believe it is present at birth and consists of multiple different subsets of diseases. It has been likely linked to certain chemicals mothers were exposed to during pregnancy, but that was not found to be the only cause. We do know, however, that it is not related to or caused by MMR or to vaccines.

I should dig up the study I read about prenatal brain structure abnormalities present in children who went on to develop autism.

This isn't it, but in a similar vein:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....1366/

youngishbear

Fri, May 03 2019, 11:46 am

I also am confused about the placebo outcry. A placebo is used to test effectiveness and uncover adverse effects. It is supposed to be double-blind, which means neither the testers nor the testees are aware of which subject has which version of the treatment. It is considered the gold standard in medical research that is nevertheless not practical in many situations, among them:

1 - If it's impossible to hide who is receiving which treatment, like when testing different forms of talk therapy. What would be the placebo? The patient would be aware of the treatment modality, or nontreatment.

2 - Ethical issues, such as withholding life-saving treatment for the sake of the study.

Let's imagine a gold standard test for vaccines, done now. The researchers would need to collect a pool of subjects who are willing to take the gamble and receive shots that either contain the vaccine or a simple saline solution. Then these volunteers would all be followed for whatever period of time will be considered the gold standard.

I, for one, am not volunteering my kids. I have a brilliant brainstorm. Nonvaxxers should volunteer their children for this study, with the understanding that their kids have a 50% chance of receiving the vaccine, but they won't know.

Who's with me?

SixOfWands

Fri, May 03 2019, 11:51 am

youngishbear wrote:

But what would that placebo show? You test those who receive the vaccine to see if they developed immunity. Yup, they did. So is the placebo to see if those who didn't receive the vaccine, and didn't have the disease, also developed immunity? We know they don't. So that purpose does a placebo serve?

amother

Fuchsia

Fri, May 03 2019, 11:57 am

SixOfWands wrote:

It would show if the kids with the vaccine had side effects that the control group didn't get.

nchr

Fri, May 03 2019, 12:12 pm

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

all the ones listed as common side effects in the literature.

There would be no reason to develop say fever, which is a sign of developing immunity if you are not injected with anything because your body would not be developing antibodies. I'm not understand the question.

A child who does not receive a vaccine has no chance of developing any side effects from the vaccine, although serious side effects are extremely rare as detailed below:

Rate of Severe Reaction to the MMR: 1 per 1 or 3 million
Rates of overall moderate to severe reactions to the MMR vaccine are detailed below (note - not all are severe reactions)
Allergic reactions (including anaphylaxis) 3.5 or 10 per 1 million doses
Febrile seizures: 1 per 3,000 doses although some studies have found a higher rate
Thrombocytopenia: 1 per 30,000 or 40,000 doses
Encephalopathy & Encephalitis: less than 1 per 1 million doses (keep in mind this occurs 1 time out of 1,000 measles infections)
More common reactions include redness, swelling or tenderness near the injection site.

What would the placebo add in terms of a scientific and academic gain?

Also, just in general, what did the Danish review not include? It studied over half of a million children from 1999-2010, including those vaccinated and those unvaccinated. Are those unvaccinated children not a placebo group?

southernbubby

Fri, May 03 2019, 12:17 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Wasn't that done in Monroe NY when the Hepatitis A vaccine was tested? The kids who really got vaccinated were protected but the placebo group had a percentage of people who got Hepatitis A. After the study, the reminder of the placebo group were given the vaccine.

amother

Vermilion

Fri, May 03 2019, 12:23 pm

I believe that the same children who are sensitive to specific vaccinations are the same kids that are most at risk of serious complications or death from contracting the actual illness.

If a tiny amount of measles virus can cause something, just imagine what full blown measles will cause in that same child.

Unfortunately there is no way to prove this.

amother

Fuchsia

Fri, May 03 2019, 12:24 pm

nchr wrote:

The use of placebos to test for side effects - would provide stronger indication of whether XYZ after effects, reactions is a better word that you listed are in-fact caused by the vaccine or coincidental.

amother

Salmon

Fri, May 03 2019, 12:28 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I always thought the anti-vaxxers were crazy people. What I can tell you now is that my third child completely changed after having some vaccines. He got bronchiolitis within days. He got eczema. His nervous system changed. He became a completely different and very difficult child. Only after seeing such a clear connection by him, did we notice that this is what happened to my second child as well. My pediatrician who is very pro-vaccines told me to hold off on giving him any more vaccines until he turns two.

I now understand the anti-vaxxers.

I do believe vaccines can be helpful and should be used - properly. I believe the government needs to perform better studies and I believe the current schedule for administering vaccines is flawed and needs to be adjusted.

Dont let anyone take away your motherly intuition.
I had a similar experience and continued with the vaccination schedule but took this particular child to a kinesthiologist who detoxified him.
And also once my child was suffering a cold at a well visit when I refused to vaccinate (while the pediatrician said yes to vaccinate). I vaccinated him after he was 100% well.
A doctor who can tell a child with low immunity to get vaccinated while having a cold is a doctor that follows protocol while missing a sixth sense.
Doctors are trained in medical school. the medical establishment have their interests.They know what they are taught and they also play a political game like all establishments. One pediatrician in my medical group admitted that some children have adverse reactions to vaccines and recommends Chinese accupuncture after the shots (to these children).

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, May 03 2019, 12:34 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I would have to agree that calling all anti-vaxers bored and unemployed shuts down discussion but the MMR vaccine is a matter of public health and the right of the public to safeguard the vulnerable against a mostly preventable virus that isn't totally innocuous. Why does Amazon have to antagonize that public by selling alternative information?
Does Amazon also have to provide info on how to build bombs or misinformation about groups such as Jews?

Hate to break the news to you it Amazon does sell books on how to make such things.

momsrus

Fri, May 03 2019, 12:41 pm

ectomorph wrote:

This got buried.

I firmly believe that there are only two or three women who are anti-vax posting regularly here. If they want to prove it's true end that they are really different people they should really post under their own user names.

Why do you think so?

If the anti vax movement was as small as you think it is (2-3 woman out of the many posters on imamother) the outbreak would not be going on for 7 months.

There are plenty of mishiguim in this world.

nchr

Fri, May 03 2019, 12:44 pm

ectomorph wrote:

According to this poll https://www.imamother.com/foru.....59947 only 19 amothers do not vaccinate and 8 vaccinated because they wanted their children to return to school. Presumably not all of them post on every thread.

southernbubby

Fri, May 03 2019, 12:57 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

Hate to break the news to you it Amazon does sell books on how to make such things.

It is their choice of what to sell. Sometimes they get flak for selling racist items and they remove them, as well as unsafe or recalled items.
Probably nobody is complaining about books that instruct people in how to make things explode.

youngishbear

Fri, May 03 2019, 2:31 pm

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

This. The most dangerous ingredient in the vaccine is the disease itself, which would cause far more harm in its natural live form. Why is this so hard to understand?

Also, to add on to someone's post I was unable to quote because it was in multiple pieces, it would be wonderful if we could sequence everyone's genes and match it to genetic risk for specific diseases, disorders, and predispositions. I believe it will happen one day (raising all kinds of psychological and ethical questions to consider, of how much do we really know, etc.) We are already seeing some of this in Dor Yeshurim, for example.

But we are very far from that.

youngishbear

Fri, May 03 2019, 2:33 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

I don't vaccinate a kid with so much as a sniffle. We do that during well visits, when the kids are presumably well. If the doctor says yes, I say I'd rather not yet. I try to schedule this not during cold and strep season.