Cultural appropriation

amother

Lilac

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:27 am

Israeli_C wrote:

Then let me rephrase this; as someone who follows halacha and sees hair covering as more than just a 'sign' 'signal' or 'cultural signifier', I find putting a turban on one's head with all the hair out utterly pointless. It seems we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

There are rabbis that say it is fine (especially if it's only a tefach of hair). So these women also have a leg to stand on religiously.

In any case, if it's meaningful to them, it's not pointless!!

Israeli_C

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:33 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

There are rabbis that say it is fine (especially if it's only a tefach of hair). So these women also have a leg to stand on religiously.

In any case, if it's meaningful to them, it's not pointless!!

A tefach I've heard of and accept but I've never heard of a Rabbi say that allowing all of the hair flow out is acceptable.

If it's meaningful for them, good for them.
I still think it's utterly pointless.

Israeli_C

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:36 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

I edited and posted the picture.

My internet has blocked the pic. I think I know what you posted. If it's the torch lighting ceremony, you'll notice she's covering her hair completely. I have no problem with large mitpachot, it's actually very in fashion where I live. It's putting all of one's hair out the bottom I find bizarre.

FranticFrummie

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:44 am

icebreaker wrote:

I love African-print headwraps but I'm a little afraid to even buy one. Honestly, I'm not sure if each print has a different meaning or something so I feel like I should at least research to see if there is any cultural significance before putting it on my head.

Each print signifies a different tribe, and they are definitely very specific. If you see an African woman in a headwrap, feel free to give her a compliment, and ask her how she feels about non African women wearing that fabric (no matter how you wrap it.)

She may not see a problem, she may feel like educating you on the history, or she may not have the time. All of those responses are OK.

ora_43

Mon, May 20 2019, 11:49 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Is this appropriation? Linor Abergil, famous Israeli model/lawyer/public figure.
These turbans really remind me of Africa.

Limor Abergil's family is from Morocco, in Africa. (of course, could still be appropriation if it was a specific non-Moroccan African style)

I don't think it's cultural appropriation in any case, since:

1. It's not an exact match for one specific style.
2. It's not modeled on a religiously or culturally significant item.
3. Israel and many African countries have decent ties, this isn't an oppressor/oppressed relationship.

ora_43

Mon, May 20 2019, 12:31 pm

IMO

OK:
Enjoying other cultures' food/music/clothing/etc.

Creating (and even selling) food/music/clothing/etc influenced by (but not identical to) those of other cultures that have friendly, more-or-less-equal ties with your own.

Not OK:
Using food/music/clothing etc that another culture uses in sacred rituals.

Using food/music/clothing/etc that another culture uses specifically to signify that they are members of their group. (eg nuns' habits, native American headdresses, Maori tattoos)

Any situation where elements of a group's culture are more accepted than the actual people in the group.

Profiting off of a food/music/clothing etc that is an exact copy of something specific to another culture.

juggling

Mon, May 20 2019, 12:42 pm

Israeli_C wrote:

There are rabbis who say all you need is a symbolic covering. It's not "mainstream" but it's definitely a legitimate psak. Definitely not pointless, the point is that a married jewish woman wears a symbolic head covering. According to that psak. Now you know.

ora_43

Mon, May 20 2019, 12:54 pm

To anyone who doesn't believe cultural appropriation is a real thing: how do you like this statue?

ETA: the link goes to a picture of a statue on the Charles Bridge in Prague, that shows a crucified Christian diety surrounded by words from the kedusha prayer, in Hebrew. The words were added to the statue (around two centuries ago? maybe less) to deliberately humiliate Jews in the city.

Last edited by ora_43 on Mon, May 20 2019, 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

iyar

Mon, May 20 2019, 1:13 pm

ora_43 wrote:

To anyone who doesn't believe cultural appropriation is a real thing: how do you like this statue?

That’s horrifying.
I wish I wouldn’t have clicked on the link.
Would you consider removing it?
I didn’t realize it would be an image with שם ה׳ in it.
On the topic of cultural appropriation - I’m not sure it’s such a bad thing. But if Sikhs were offended by the turban, maybe there’s something sacred about it to them?
The only thing I found upsetting was a designer who used pieces of Sifrei Torah in her designs. I don’t know if they were actual pieces of klaf or just an imitation but I saw a picture and literally felt sick.

SixOfWands

Mon, May 20 2019, 1:16 pm

juggling wrote:

And while I don't have time to look it up today, IIRC, there is a difference of opinion as to covering HAIR or covering HEAD. If you hold that the HEAD must be covered, a hat or scarf with hair at the back would be acceptable.

Israeli_C

Mon, May 20 2019, 1:44 pm

juggling wrote:

I would love more information on ONE respectable ORTHODOX Rabbi who paskens like this.

Mon, May 20 2019, 2:07 pm

The Sikh objection the Gucci turban is cogent and reasonable. The fashion obviously crossed the line:

https://www.cnn.com/style/arti......html

Does that mean that no one can ever wear fashions influenced by another culture? Of course not. But people should make an effort to understand the cultural context and make sensitive choices.

Fox

Mon, May 20 2019, 4:36 pm

The irony is that the people complaining the loudest about cultural appropriation are almost always the most privileged -- and often the most ignorant. When Asian-Americans shut down a museum exhibit a few years ago where people were urged to try on kimonos, Japanese people were outraged; they are desperately trying to keep traditional kimono dyers and manufacturers in business, and they want people to purchase and wear kimonos or yukatas.

Some Native American groups have made videos urging people to come to their events and purchase items, explaining that the sacredness of an object is usually connected to its composition and provenance. A piece of apparel with fake feathers is not sacred where one with real feathers might be.

And, of course, the "blackface shoes" weren't a reference to vaudeville. They were a nod to African-Caribbean art, which their detractors would have realized if they'd bothered to attend art history class at their elite colleges. Were they odd-looking? Yes. But there's a lot of odd to be had on the runway.

I don't think any sane person would defend costumes based on derogatory stereotypes -- the type often adopted by 18-22-year-old college boys for parties. But we can save ourselves a lot of time and hurt feelings if we acknowledge that virtually everything a group of 18-22-year-old boys might think of doing is probably offensive, dangerous, or illegal.

Cultures cannot copyright "looks," and I highly doubt that Sikhs were the first ones in the world to wind their turbans in that particular style. And, actually, there isn't a single style unique to the Sikh community. If they'd been smart, they would have used the Gucci product to educate people about Sikhs rather than nag.

ectomorph

Mon, May 20 2019, 5:32 pm

Israeli_C wrote:

I would love more information on ONE respectable ORTHODOX Rabbi who paskens like this.

Some imamother posters love to pasken based on random Rabbis, who you'll notice they never name. When called on it, they'll admit that they exaggerated or outright made stuff up. (see the recent abortion thread for an excellent example)

That said, you can find an idiot somewhere who will say that purple socks are what techeles really is. Unless a few rabbonim actually hold by it, it's irrelevant.

33055

Mon, May 20 2019, 5:33 pm

icebreaker wrote:

I bought two in an ethnic store in Cambridge. My wig was bothering me driving home, so I wore one. It was a comfortable regal headwrap. Loved it. It matched my outfit, and I felt I looked good.

I haven't had the nerve to wear it again.

amother

Navy

Mon, May 20 2019, 6:06 pm

ectomorph wrote:

Given your nasty comments about rabbis with whom you disagree, is it any wonder that I've no intention of responding.

ectomorph

Mon, May 20 2019, 6:19 pm

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

Given your nasty comments about rabbis with whom you disagree, is it any wonder that I've no intention of responding.

Really, point out where I've been nasty unnecessarily.

Really, if you claim that a rabbi said that an abortion is no big deal, I have a right to be skeptic al