Do you even feel a little bit bad?

southernbubby

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 4:32 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

nobody is forcing me to take them. where there is risk there must be choice

But the rest of society is not obligated to take risks to give anti-vaxers the choice. This is why there is controversy; because anti-vaxers are saying that if they are excluded from the community, they are forced to vaccinate rather than really, truly having a choice.

Then, if they don't deliberately expose their kids to measles, they are likely catch it during pregnancy or in old age and they are blaming us vaxers for that because our choice to vaccinate means fewer natural opportunities to get the disease.

Olive oil, we just can't win with you guys.

amother

Olive

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 4:42 pm

nchr wrote:

I think the reality that gets to many anti vaxxers is that they dont personally know anyone with a child who is blind or mentally damaged because of measles, deaf because of rubella, not alive because of HIB infections, buried because of pertussis, etc. They probably have not even seen suffering from any of these diseases and if so, on a minor scale, because vaccines are so effective.

They do know children with celiac disease or autism though and we cannot explain what causes these conditions so they blame it on something they cannot understand and can feel safe with. They want to protect their kids, like all parents and feel safer thinking our improved hygiene protects us from polio (it's actually the opposite - polio was never a problem when infants were exposed due to lack of municipal waste treatment) or from measles (one of the most contagious airborne diseases that hygiene does not impact) etc. Even though it is a false security but it is a tangible one for them.

I dont think any anti vaxxer would want to go back to a 1900s reality of communicable disease and that they are very happy the majority of people do vaccinate.

what ended Malaria, Yellow fever and black plague? also vaccines?

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 4:53 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

how many people in a family have to be injured before you give them the green light and right of way not to vaccinate? just curious?
I for one, would not have gotten a medical exemptions because the injured ones are my cousins and nephews,
some logic wouldn't hurt when trying to protect your children. how can a HEALTHY child infect you with measles
if you were at the Atrium event, which you mentioned you were, you probably heard Dr. Bar Zeev talking about this

How do you know people in your family were injured? What sorts of injuries were these, how long after the vaccinations did the injuries occur, how long did the injuries last? How do you know the vaccinations caused the injuries?

I myself get annoyed when people say "correlation is not equivalent to causation" because in fact analysis of correlation between two events is often how we first suspect that one event causes another. But we only know that one event causes another IF we can figure out the mechanism of causation between the first event and the second AND if we can demonstrate that this mechanism holds along various points of the causal chain.

In the stories I hear of vaccine injury, I don't see any of this. I don't see correlation, except at the limited anecdotal level. And I certainly don't hear any explanation of a causal mechanism. There's no coherent argument. That's why I don't believe it. I believe that you believe it. But I think that if you thought more logically, you would realize that what you are saying does not form a rational argument.

I also hear people talking about "vaccine injury" when they're actually talking about how the vaccine is supposed to work. Yes, it's often the case that a kid will get a little sick after getting a vaccine. That's because their body is reacting and developing immunity. That was understood even back when Jenner developed his smallpox vaccine. That's not a vaccine injury. That's the vaccine doing its work, and the point is that the minor illness is so much better to get than the actual illness.

amother

Sapphire

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 4:58 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

1) the doctor's love to repeat this but the study which this is based on is really weak. if you know how to read a study I can look for it and post it
2) you're confusing this with chicken pox. do a search or ask a knowledgeable doctor.
3) there are great stuff out there to help measles along. including vitamin A recommended by CDC but which DOH forgets to tell us
also perhaps DOH should educate people about measles dangers to immuno compromised and how to identify the earliest symptoms so people can properly isolate themselves.
if the fined anyone who is in the street with runny itchy eyes I would be first to support that but that would include vaccinated

Runny itchy eyes is by usually not the first symptom of measles. The first symptom by and large is achy limbs (feels like strep) and fever.

amother

Coral

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:03 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

1) please! I would love to see why you think this information is wrong
2) the only early symptoms are often attributed to a cold and missed
3) not everyone can have large doses of vitamin a- especially pregnant women and infants.

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:08 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

what ended Malaria, Yellow fever and black plague? also vaccines?

Funny you should mention malaria. Malaria is still a scourge in Africa, but is no longer endemic in the US. You know what ended malaria in the US? Lots and lots of DDT, which killed the mosquitos which brought the malaria. (See https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/ab.....html.) DDT had horrific consequences, which are still apparent in the world today. It destroyed animal populations, caused cancer in animals and humans, and caused the development of DDT-resistant mosquitos.

We know that DDT caused those things. We don't just have massive correlation to rely on; we know the causal mechanism of DDT.

That's not the case with vaccines, which are incredibly safe.

There has been some work on developing a vaccine for malaria, as well as for dengue fever, another mosquito-borne disease. There has been some work by Sanofi on developing a vaccine for dengue; for various reasons, trials of the vaccine showed that the vaccine was not safe. I know that as of several years ago, Sanofi was putting a lot of money into figuring out the problem. I happened to come across this because of some work some colleagues were doing. It made me realize that even Big Pharma are very careful when it comes to developing, testing, and distributing vaccines.

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:16 pm

Amother Olive, regarding your claim that Vitamin A is a magic bullet for measles: there's no evidence for this. In a previous post on one of the many vaccine threads, I believe in April, I pointed out that you can find studies showing that Vitamin A halves mortality among *malnourished* children under the age of 2. I have seen no studies (reputable or not) showing that Vitamin A helps with measles among well-nourished children over the age of 2, let alone among adults.

I'll try to hunt for the thread that has my posts on this matter. But unless you've just joined imamother, or just became interested in vaccinations, you should have seen it.

southernbubby

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:25 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Some vaccine injuries are mechanical in nature such as injection into the shoulder joint instead of the deltoid muscle or using improperly stored serum.

In less understood reactions however, I think that they should be taken seriously because even if we can't establish a causal mechanism, it may exist. This is one of the biggest anti-vax complaints; that serious possibly reactions are ignored and disregarded.

amother

Olive

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:32 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

please see my first post on this thread to understand the vaccine injuries

nchr

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:42 pm

keym wrote:

Which is why I have the same question.

I could totally understand that there are children who can't get the shot, but shouldn't they want as many people as possible to get the shots?
Why are they holding events to encourage people not to vaccinate.

Right. I dont understand why they would distribute materials like PEACH or intentionally expose their children to diseases. The only anti vaxxers I personally know (two families) either vaccinated their children now (one family) or have been diligent about not taking their children to public places and are having them play with vaccinated children (other family).

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:42 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I think first, that we should separate injuries that occur from the vaccine being administered improperly from injuries that occur when the vaccine has been administered properly.

I am the first to raise my hand and point to cases of incompetence on the part of medical professionals, like the nurse at Mount Sinai who gave my father z"l the wrong medication and almost killed him. Human error exists, and absolutely, we should work to eliminate it as much as possible. We can and should do it. (An example of where we did it successfully is anesthesia. Forty or so years ago, 1 in ten thousand patients died while under anesthesia. Now, 1 in a million patients die while under anesthesia. A one-hundred fold reduction in the rate of death. That's fantastic! It can be done for other cases of medical error as well.)

Regarding the second issue, that of injuries even when the vaccine is administered properly: I know this is a sensitive subject for you because your son was injured from a flu vaccine. I know these things happen. But often what I hear from anti-vax people are very vague stories. For example: Their child was sweet tempered and got the MMR and a few months later, he became impossible to control. (That's called turning two years old.) I don't think we should encourage such stories.

I do think understanding the causal mechanism is the only real way to prove causation, but I also realize that it's easy to posit an incorrect causal model for which there is some evidence. The history of science is the story of changing causal models, each of which explains more phenomena than the previous reigning model.

amother

Olive

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:46 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

DDT is not ok because it caused cancer
Polio vaccine which was contaminated with SV40 between 1955 and 1963 and caused cancer in about 10% of those inoculated, is ok. of course, they caught the mistake and hopefully it isn't happening now. but do we know?

and talking of DDT. they now admit that it caused paralysis. do you know anyone who claims to have gotten paralyzed from DDT? or only people who claim Polio which circulated at the same time

amother

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:47 pm

nchr wrote:

They are about control. Olive said as much that she doesn't care about other children. She is only concerned about her own. She should want the other children to be injured every which way to keep her precious darlings safer.

amother

Olive

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:50 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

let's just prove such stories wrong by making better studies
don't tell me there are unless you bring them to me
I never said it's for sure a vaccine injury. maybe yes and maybe no
that's why everyone gets to do what they're comfortable with

southernbubby

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 5:50 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

fantastic point.
you don't drive sober only because other people will drive sober too

We are all safer when everyone drives sober. For a long time, people who had religious and philosophical objections to vaccines were protected from catching VPDs because everyone around them was vaccinated. When you guys with your rallies got more people not to vaccinate, the disease began to spread everywhere. Now there are lots of people in danger, but hey, at least your kids are fine and that's what's important, right?

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jun 06 2019, 6:11 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

Amother Olive, I find your post impossible to understand. I can't even parse it.

"let's just prove such stories wrong by making better studies"
What are you saying here?

"don't tell me there are unless you bring them to me"
I shouldn't tell you there are what? What or who should I bring to you?

"I never said it's for sure a vaccine injury. maybe yes and maybe no"
You made it very clear in a previous post that you believed that multiple relatives of yours were injured by vaccines. Now you're saying you're not sure. Well, I'm glad you see my point: it's very hard to know if something negative that happened after a vaccine happened because of that vaccine. Negative things happen all the time and vaccines happen all the time.

"that's why everyone gets to do what they're comfortable with"
A non-sequitur if I ever heard one.

---
By the way, I think I may have interacted with you in mid-May when you were amother yellow (in just wondering ... re:vaxxing thread), and in mid-April (in the Measles: Baltimore thread) when you were amother Ruby. Whether or not you were amother Yellow in the just wondering thread, you can go back to that thread to see the discussion of the very partial help that Vitamin A gives -- mostly just to babies under 2 who were known to be low on Vitamin A.