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turca




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Jun 22 2019, 10:12 pm
bluebaker wrote:
Without vaccinations, medications, medical interventions? How is it that you do not even ponder this? Why are these viruses invading your bodies? At what point did the immune system give up? What was going through your parents minds when they put their faith in *doctors* and not in the God that made you and them? What is this nonsense now that is going on? Measles? Chicken Pox? Rubella? I will tell you. Listen.

I received all vaccinations INCLUDING polio, including tetanus, including rubella, chicken pox, measles and MORE. I must have received over 20 different vaccinations BEFORE the age of 10. I was inundated with antibiotics, vaccinations and boosters (to make sure) and other drugs. Heck, for good measure they tore out my poor tonsils, because of *infection*. I was a child of experimentation.

Fast-forward 50 years and more - I have heart failure and my entire nervous system is dis-regulated - meaning my AUTONOMIC NERVOUS SYSTEM has been taken over by my SYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM - the SNS is the reactive state. This is when you no longer feel connected to your body because it's in the reactive state. This is not kosher and not conducive to a healthy body/mind/soul. My mother Z"l was zealous and overly so in making sure her daughter would survive what she believed to be a plague. BUT THERE WAS NO PLAGUE. Get this into your minds. There is no plague. There is no danger. There is no threat. There is no horrible disease that will come and snatch your children from under you. There is a choice to be made - between life and death. Choose life. Live it. Move to a place where you can be free. Follow Patriot Nurse and learn from her the rudiments if you're still into living in exile. If you want to be healthy? MOVE TO ISRAEL. There is a new movement of healing in its initial stages. Samaria, Emek Haelah, Nahariah are points of interest. Do not believe hype. Snap out of it.

Hah!
My mother is over 65. She grew up in Mexico City, she had zero vaccines.
1. She has an autoimmune disease that nobody knows excactly what it is and it’s destroying her liver.
2. She has a tremor, apparently her nervous system is out of connection and her reflexes are slower.
3. She had measles
4. She had mumps
5. She had rubella
6. She had chickenpox
7. She lost a baby brother due to diphtheria. It was not neither lack of treatment nor drs, my grandparents were wealthy.
According to the antivaxxx blah blah, since she has had childhood diseases, she should be the healthiest person around , right????Wrong!!!!
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youngishbear




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 12:11 am
OP, refuah sheleima.
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bluebaker




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 1:50 am
Opinion: Is Modern Medicine a Religion?

https://www.drugtopics.com/my-.....igion

amother [ Oak ] wrote:
Just a story o want to share on the topic. I am sure that you will have a perfect theory how this has nothing to do with vaccines. I’m just stating the facts, take out what you’d like. (Another, because told this to many people)
my grandmother was a child living in a very large town in Hungary. One day a woman knocked on their door. She was holding a sick child. She told them that her child is ill and she had gone to a rebbe for a Brucha. He told her to place her child in a home where they didn’t have one of their children die in childhood diseases.she was already in her 2nd town, going from door to door, and she hasn’t found yet such a family!!!! And my grandmothers town was not a filthy unhygienic situation. So modern medicine seems quite miraculous to me
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bluebaker




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 1:58 am
*“If you will listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His eyes, and pay attention to His commands, and keep all His statutes, then I will not bring on you any of the diseases I inflicted on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.” Exodus 15:26*

The Gemara in B. Kama 85a cites from the Mechilta: "[A Tanna] of the academy of R. Yishmael says: 'He shall provide for healing' (Shemot 21:19) -- from here [we derive] that a physician is given permission to heal." This means that although the Gemara in Chulin (7b) states, "R. Chanina says: A person does not bang his finger below unless it is decreed upon him from Above, as it says, 'A man's footsteps are established by Hashem' (Tehillim 37:23), 'but what does a man understand of his way?' (Mishlei 20:24)" -- still, if a sick or injured person comes before a physician, he does not have to tell him, "It is G-d's will that you be sick or injured," but rather the physician is allowed to help the patient and heal him.

However, the Ramban writes in Parshat Bechukotai (Vayikra 26:11) as follows:

When Israel are perfect and large in number, their course of events will not be subject to nature at all, neither regarding their bodies nor their land, neither communally nor for an individual of them. Hashem will bless their bread and their water, and remove sickness from amidst them, so that they will not need a physician nor to take any medical precautions at all, as it says, "I am Hashem, your Healer." (Shemot 15:26)

This is how the righteous would act in the era of prophecy. Even if a sin were to cause them to fall ill, they would not seek doctors, but only the prophets, as Chizkiya did in his illness. Furthermore, the pasuk says [about Asa], "Also in his illness, he did not seek out Hashem, but only doctors." (Divrei Hayamim II 16:12) If the issue of doctors was commonly practiced among them, why are the doctors mentioned? The accusation is only because he did not seek Hashem ... However, one who seeks Hashem through a prophet would not seek doctors. After all, what place do doctors have in the house of those who do the will of Hashem, since He promised, "He shall bless your bread and your water, and I shall remove illness from your midst." (Shemot 23:25) Anyway, the doctors deal merely with food and drink, warning from it and commanding about it...

This is what [Chazal] say (Brachot 60b) that it is not normal for people to involve in medical practices, just they are accustomed to do so. Were they not accustomed to medicine, a person would become sick as fitting according to the punishment of his sins, and would be healed by the Will of G-d. However, they were accustomed to medicine, and G-d left them to the events of Nature. This is their intention when they say: "He shall provide for healing -- from here [we derive] that a physician is given permission to heal." They did not say that a sick person is given permission to seek medical help, but rather that when a person becomes sick and seeks medical help -- since he is accustomed to medicine, and he is not among the assembly of G-d whose share is in Life -- the doctor does not have to refrain from healing him.

Despite this, the Taz writes (Y.D. 336:1) in explanation of Abaye's opinion in Brachot 60a:

The Torah also consented to this that healing should be based on nature, because the Torah understood that man would not be so worthy as to be healed miraculously from Heaven. Therefore, it is not possible to say that this pasuk, "He shall provide for healing," teaches that it is a mitzvah [to heal], since if the person is worthy he does not need it. Just the opposite, he should have required healing from Heaven, only that according to common practice, it is permissible for him. Therefore, it now becomes a requirement and a mitzvah, since according to man's behavior his life is dependent on it.

What this all means is that even though there is individual hashgacha (Providence), as we cited from the Gemara in Chulin, still, there are a number of variable involved. It is know that in Eretz Yisrael there is more hashgacha than elsewhere. (Cf. Devarim 11:12 and Rashi there, as well as Ramban on Vayikra 18:22 at length.) However, even in a single place there is a difference between a righteous person and a simple one. Rashi writes at the end of Parshat Vayeishev that Yosef was left in prison for two additional years because he made attempts with the butler and didn't have confidence in Hashem. This seems difficult, since a person is required to make attempts, and the Gemara in Pesachim (64b) says that we do not rely on miracles!

The Beit Halevi (in his commentary on the Torah) explains that if a regular person were in Yosef's situation, he would be obligated to make attempts with the butler. However, Yosef was on such a spiritual level that even this attempt was considered for him a lack of confidence. A simple person has less Providence, and therefore is required to make attempts more often. A righteous person has more Providence, and therefore needs to make attempts less, and when he attempts too much -- it is considered for him as a lack of confidence in Hashem. Therefore, for Yosef, the attempt with the butler was a sin.

When people were more righteous, there was more individual hashgacha. Going to the doctor was considered an unnecessary attempt, and therefore was a sin, as the Ramban writes. However, the level of yirat Shamayim declined, as it says: "R. Zera said in the name of Rava b. Zimona: If the early ones are like the sons of angels, we are like people; if the early ones are like people, we are like donkeys -- not like the donkey of R. Chanina b. Dosa and of R. Pinchas b. Yair, but like other donkeys." (Shabbat 112b) Therefore, nowadays, a person is required to go to a doctor, as the Taz writes in Yoreh De'ah.

The Netziv writes in Ha'amek Davar (Bamidbar 6:11; 17:3) that a person may not live above his spiritual level, and one who does so is called "sinning against his soul." This expression of "sinning with his soul" appears twice in Sefer Bamidbar. The first time is in regards to the 250 people of Korach's assembly who died when they offered the incense, and the second time is regarding a nazir who became defiled. It says about Korach's assembly, "the firepans of these sinners against their souls" (17:3), since these 250 heads of the Sanhedrin knew ahead of time that they would die, yet they were willing (according to the Netziv) to die in order to cling to the Divine Presence through offering the incense. Regarding a nazir who becomes defiled it says, "He should atone for him for having sinned against his soul." (6:11), since he wanted the Holy Spirit to dwell on him and therefore undertook to become a nazir, but the fact that he was defiled is a sign that he was not worthy of this level.

Thus, a person nowadays who becomes ill, G-d forbid, needs to recognize who he is and the generation in which he lives, and must see a physician. At the same time, he must recognize that he became sick because G-d wanted so, and his healing will come only if G-d wants it, and therefore, he must examine his actions, repent and pray to the Creator. Along with all this, he must attempt medical measures, and pray that through them G-d will sent him healing.

The Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 230:4) quotes the Gemara Brachot 60a that one who goes to let blood says, "May it be Your will, Hashem, my G-d, that this action should be for me healing, for You are a free Healer." The Mishna Berurah adds there (240:6), "The same is true for every medical issue that he should say this, and he shouldn't think that anything will heal him other than by G-d."

Shiur ID: 3687

http://www.kby.org.il/english/.....=3687


amother [ Peach ] wrote:
They were in the anannei hakovod. Everything there was an open miracle - no diseases whatsoever.

50 years ago they didn't have a chicken pox vaccine.

Your mother did what she felt was best based on what she was told. Is there actual proof that your problems are a result of the medical interventions you are so upset about? If so, then your feelings are 100% justified. If not, please stop fear-mongering.
[b][I]
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bluebaker




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 2:09 am
We have proof.

The Plague at Shittim
B'Midbar 25.9 במדבר

’And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand-וַיִּהְיוּ הַמֵּתִים בַּמַּגֵּפָה אַרְבָּעָה וְעֶשְׂרִים אָלֶף





amother [ Mint ] wrote:
There's no reason to believe that children didn't die in the midbar. We have no proof one way or another. Child mortality was rampant until a hundred and fifty years ago.
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bluebaker




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 2:11 am
What was her mother's health like when she carried her in her womb?
What kind of food/formula/milk was she given as an infant?
What kind of medications was she given throughout her life?
What was her diet like throughout her life?



turca wrote:
Hah!
My mother is over 65. She grew up in Mexico City, she had zero vaccines.
1. She has an autoimmune disease that nobody knows excactly what it is and it’s destroying her liver.
2. She has a tremor, apparently her nervous system is out of connection and her reflexes are slower.
3. She had measles
4. She had mumps
5. She had rubella
6. She had chickenpox
7. She lost a baby brother due to diphtheria. It was not neither lack of treatment nor drs, my grandparents were wealthy.
According to the antivaxxx blah blah, since she has had childhood diseases, she should be the healthiest person around , right????Wrong!!!!
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flowerpower




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 2:26 am
Op, time for a new hobby. You seem to have too much spare time on your hands.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 3:03 am
bluebaker wrote:
What was her mother's health like when she carried her in her womb?
What kind of food/formula/milk was she given as an infant?
What kind of medications was she given throughout her life?
What was her diet like throughout her life?





We can ask the same questions about you.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 3:13 am
bluebaker wrote:
Opinion: Is Modern Medicine a Religion?
Dennis Miller, RPh
November 7, 2018

Dennis Miller, R.Ph. is a retired chain store pharmacist living in Delray Beach, Florida. He welcomes feedback at dmiller1952@aol.com.
https://www.drugtopics.com/my-.....igion



And yet, we didn't start these threads about vaccines. You did. If the anti-vaxx movement were not a form of religion to you, of which you were a devout disciple, well, why else would you have posted these threads?
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 3:16 am
bluebaker wrote:
Without vaccinations, medications, medical interventions? How is it that you do not even ponder this? Why are these viruses invading your bodies? At what point did the immune system give up? What was going through your parents minds when they put their faith in *doctors* and not in the God that made you and them? What is this nonsense now that is going on? Measles? Chicken Pox? Rubella? I will tell you. Listen.

I received all vaccinations INCLUDING polio, including tetanus, including rubella, chicken pox, measles and MORE. I must have received over 20 different vaccinations BEFORE the age of 10. I was inundated with antibiotics, vaccinations and boosters (to make sure) and other drugs. Heck, for good measure they tore out my poor tonsils, because of *infection*. I was a child of experimentation.

Fast-forward 50 years and more - I have heart failure and my entire nervous system is dis-regulated - meaning my AUTONOMIC NERVOUS SYSTEM has been taken over by my SYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM - the SNS is the reactive state. This is when you no longer feel connected to your body because it's in the reactive state. This is not kosher and not conducive to a healthy body/mind/soul. My mother Z"l was zealous and overly so in making sure her daughter would survive what she believed to be a plague. BUT THERE WAS NO PLAGUE. Get this into your minds. There is no plague. There is no danger. There is no threat. There is no horrible disease that will come and snatch your children from under you. There is a choice to be made - between life and death. Choose life. Live it. Move to a place where you can be free. Follow Patriot Nurse and learn from her the rudiments if you're still into living in exile. If you want to be healthy? MOVE TO ISRAEL. There is a new movement of healing in its initial stages. Samaria, Emek Haelah, Nahariah are points of interest. Do not believe hype. Snap out of it.


Refuah Sheleima.
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amother




Peach
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 3:29 am
Sorry, I realized that I was mistaken about who posted what embarrassed
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 3:39 am
bluebaker wrote:
What was her mother's health like when she carried her in her womb?
What kind of food/formula/milk was she given as an infant?
What kind of medications was she given throughout her life?
What was her diet like throughout her life?





According to your brand of logic, what's the difference what turca's mom's diet or medications or womb conditions were? If she got sick, it's only because God wanted her to get sick!

That's the problem with your line of reasoning. If there's no cause and effect in your world, there's no reason for anyone to try to prevent diseases, whether through diet, exercise, lifestyle choices (e.g., hours of sleep a night), or vaccines. Indeed, it would be wrong to do so.

But we know that can't be the case. Because if it were, the Rambam wouldn't have started out the Mishneh Torah with chapters and chapters of advice on how to live a healthy life. These were incorporated into the Shulchan Aruch and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch as well. It's not the details that matter -- whether we agree with the Rambam on which side to go to sleep on and to get up on, or what fruits to eat or avoid. The point is that he was clearly advocating a healthy lifestyle to prevent disease. Those were the tools that were available then. We have the additional tool of vaccines now.
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yerushamama




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 5:12 am
bluebaker wrote:
...snipped...

http://www.kby.org.il/english/.....=3687


If you truly believe that you are on a level where you don't need to follow medical advice, then I hope it works for you.

One question - based on this, how can you blame your current medical condition on vaccines?
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bluebaker




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 6:03 am
Commenting on something you feel is a waste of time is doubly a waste of time.



flowerpower wrote:
Op, time for a new hobby. You seem to have too much spare time on your hands.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 6:43 am
bluebaker wrote:
Commenting on something you feel is a waste of time is doubly a waste of time.





My dear, I hope you recognize the irony in this particular post of yours.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 7:40 am
bluebaker wrote:
Without vaccinations, medications, medical interventions? How is it that you do not even ponder this? Why are these viruses invading your bodies? At what point did the immune system give up? What was going through your parents minds when they put their faith in *doctors* and not in the God that made you and them? What is this nonsense now that is going on? Measles? Chicken Pox? Rubella? I will tell you. Listen.

I received all vaccinations INCLUDING polio, including tetanus, including rubella, chicken pox, measles and MORE. I must have received over 20 different vaccinations BEFORE the age of 10. I was inundated with antibiotics, vaccinations and boosters (to make sure) and other drugs. Heck, for good measure they tore out my poor tonsils, because of *infection*. I was a child of experimentation.

Fast-forward 50 years and more - I have heart failure and my entire nervous system is dis-regulated - meaning my AUTONOMIC NERVOUS SYSTEM has been taken over by my SYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM - the SNS is the reactive state. This is when you no longer feel connected to your body because it's in the reactive state. This is not kosher and not conducive to a healthy body/mind/soul. My mother Z"l was zealous and overly so in making sure her daughter would survive what she believed to be a plague. BUT THERE WAS NO PLAGUE. Get this into your minds. There is no plague. There is no danger. There is no threat. There is no horrible disease that will come and snatch your children from under you. There is a choice to be made - between life and death. Choose life. Live it. Move to a place where you can be free. Follow Patriot Nurse and learn from her the rudiments if you're still into living in exile. If you want to be healthy? MOVE TO ISRAEL. There is a new movement of healing in its initial stages. Samaria, Emek Haelah, Nahariah are points of interest. Do not believe hype. Snap out of it.

This is one of the most whacked-out, illogical posts I've seen in a long time.

You were vaccinated, and now, 50 years later, you have health issues, and you assume those health issues are directly attributable to the vaccinations. Perhaps they are attributable to some of the *millions* of things you ate or did in the past 50 years? Lifestyle habits? Or perhaps genetic predispositions?

Wherever you stand on the vaccination debate, it is pretty ridiculous to attribute these things to one factor without checking out any others.

Oh and the supporting evidence is even better:

In the midbar, nobody was vaccinated, and everybody was fine! THEREFORE: If we stop vaccinating, we'll be fine too! This is a beyond ridiculous conclusion. Assuming there were no illnesses (no idea if this is true or not), why attribute the lack of illness to lack of vaccinations?

- There were no televisions in the midbar. Maybe televisions cause measles?
- Nor did they have sneakers. Obviously, sneakers cause mumps!
- How about sheitels? None of those in the midbar. And... no polio! Can't deny that correlation, can you?
- Ooh, how about fish? No fish in the desert. And also no rubella! The cause an effect is crystal clear, isn't it?

BUT, if we all go to Israel, we'll be super-healthy. I am living here and nobody EVER gets sick. My neighbor is a doctor and he's just bored to tears.

Scratching Head


Last edited by DrMom on Sun, Jun 23 2019, 7:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 7:46 am
amother [ Cerise ] wrote:
This is Patriot Nurse.

https://www.thepatriotnurse.co.....ts-me


Lovely. I opened a previous link. No, for a number of reasons she's not who I'd turn to, for information or confirmation. I'm sure your link will only add to the number of reasons.

ETA: Just opened this. Reading I'm happy to do, less time commitment.
What JoyInTheMorning wrote here https://www.imamother.com/foru.....rt=20
resonates.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 8:59 am
There are some things in some parts of EY that may result in better health or longer life. These are:
Food grown in the region rather than shipped.
Higher altitude above sea level.
Walking uphill.
Government medicine.
Close family and community ties.
Respect for the elderly.
The religious seem to hit older ages.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 9:46 am
bluebaker wrote:
We have proof.

The Plague at Shittim
B'Midbar 25.9 במדבר

’And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand-וַיִּהְיוּ הַמֵּתִים בַּמַּגֵּפָה אַרְבָּעָה וְעֶשְׂרִים אָלֶף


As was said, there were natural illnesses with supernatural causes. Cures included teshuva, nachas hanechoshes, etc.
Children didn't die because they didn't sin.
Last week's parsha talks about the only korban Pesach that was done in the midbar. The reason it was the only one was that for the whole 40 years they didn't do bris on the newborns because of unknown travel schedules, so the parents couldn't bring it.
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imasoftov




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 11:45 am
PinkFridge wrote:
As was said, there were natural illnesses with supernatural causes. Cures included teshuva, nachas hanechoshes, etc.
Children didn't die because they didn't sin.
Last week's parsha talks about the only korban Pesach that was done in the midbar. The reason it was the only one was that for the whole 40 years they didn't do bris on the newborns because of unknown travel schedules, so the parents couldn't bring it.

This isn't taking any side, but I wonder if anyone ever asked, why didn't, just like the people who asked Moshe if they could bring the Pesach later because they were temaim at the regular time, didn't anyone ask him, could we have an eight-day warning before moving so we can decide whether to circumcise our sons before or after the move? Maybe add a few days for healing before moving. Or if that takes too much of the al pi Hashem aspect out of it, maybe once every year or few an announcement that we'll be here for a while so everyone should circumcise the boys from the last year or however many. There aren't that many stops mentioned in Maasei compared to 40 years so they did at times have long periods without moving.
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