Normal sibling rivalry vs. scary violence

bigsis144

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:25 pm

Heyyy so I haven't posted in a while, I've been busy. Can't Believe It

Which of these situations would have you worried, and how would you deal with them?

Situation 1: The Punch Out of Nowhere
DS9 gets into the car and notices that DS6 left his lunchbox on his seat. DS9 hits DS6 in the face with it. DS6 leaps to closed-fist punch DS9, and when DS9 holds him off, DS6 tries to bite his hands and leaves scratch marks wherever he can reach.
I try to physically separate the two, offer for DS9 to sit in the front seat (it's a short ride home, and he's relatively tall - I wouldn't normally let him sit up front, but anything to get them apart), but DS9 refuses to move. DS6 continues to punch DS9 from the row behind him, and calls him a "chicken" for leaning out of his reach. DS9 tries to pick up other objects in the car to throw at his brother.
Finally, I open all the windows and the two of them are ashamed to be seen fighting by everyone else on the carpool line, and things are okay until we get home, when the violence resumes.

Situation 2: How Is The Baby Bothering You??
DS9 yells at his 7-month-old sister to "shut up" when she happily babbles from her carseat, then reaches over to shake it roughly when she doesn't stop.

Situation 3: Unwanted Hide and Seek
DS9 grabs his baby sister out of her pack and play while my back is turned and runs upstairs with her. I don't notice immediately until I hear him laughing. I look around for the baby and can't find her. I ask where she is and he refuses to tell me. I finally find her on his bed underneath a huge pile of blankets and pillows, crying. He says he had "left an airhole" for her, and thinks it's funny even after I explain that it was dangerous.

Situation 4: Name Calling
DS9 calls his brother "stupid", "idiot", "a pathetic runt", a "butt-face dweeb" and wants me to confirm over and over again that he is smarter and better and faster than his brother. No amount of "you are smart! you are unique! you are so precious to me and there is no one else in the world that can replace you!" validation works (and I don't only do it in the heat of the moment, I make sure to have quiet one-on-one time with him)- it has to be in comparison to his brother.
DS9 calls his baby sister a "doofus" or a "dummy" multiple times an hour and makes up songs about how she "doesn't have a brain/that's why she's insane".

Situation 5: DS6's Feelings
DS6 and DS9 were sitting next to one another at the table and DS9 got up for a moment, so DS6 put his head on DS9's chair. DS9 sat on DS6's head, which led to much kicking, punching and violence as they rolled off the chairs and onto the floor. I teach the boys the word "concussion" after prying them apart from punching one another in the head. DS6 says, "DS9 deserves to be killed! I should send him to the hospital!"

Situation 6: The Knife
I am nursing in my room and don't see how the fight started this time, but I hear DS6's room door slam and hear DS9 screaming outside for DS6 to come out. I come out to see DS9 holding my large kitchen knife. I calmly and firmly take away the knife. The only provocation DS9 can describe is "he was being annoying", so I send DS9 downstairs and go to talk to DS6. As soon as DS9 hears the bedroom door open, he runs back up the stairs holding a SECOND kitchen knife (still in its sheath, BH).

Situation 7: The Drawings
DS6 is showing me pictures that he drew in school. DS9 walks over and starts insulting the pictures. DS6 defends himself saying, "my friend says I'm the best draw-er in my class!" and DS9 says, "well then, everyone must be horrible because your pictures are stupid."
They start to punch and kick one another.
I break it apart.
DS6 grabs another piece of paper and draws a picture of his brother "being dropped out of a helicopter in a volcano". DS9 is enraged, grabs the paper and tears it up.
DS6 tries to draw another picture, and DS9 doesn't even let him go a few seconds without ripping that to shreds too.
They start to punch and kick one another.
I break it apart, and scream at DS9 to go upstairs to his room.
I talk to DS6, who eventually is able to relate that he is angry at his brother. I tell him that drawing pictures when you feel angry is much better than punching and kicking and I think it's a great solution! Just not to do it where his brother sees, because it makes DS9 upset. DS6 says he still wants to draw something "exciting" and we are able to brainstorm that he will draw a ninja training dojo.
I am so proud of myself for helping to empathize with and calm DS6 down and am just getting ready to go upstairs to talk to DS9 when DS6 gets hit in the face with a shoe, thrown from DS9 who had snuck down the stairs.

Situation 8: The Glass Door
DS9 and D6 are fighting and DS9 attempts to lock DS6 in our sun room (separated from the dining room by a glass-paned door). DS6 tries to keep the door from closing and puts his arm through the glass, requiring a trip to the ER and 12 stitches for a deep gash.

Situation 9: Victim Blaming?
DS9 throws a metal can of sunscreen at DS6 and the top breaks off. Besides consequences for hurting his brother, I want DS9 to pay for the brand-new can of sunscreen, which is now unusable.
DS9 screams "DS6 broke it also!!" I say, "By getting hit in the face with it??" DS9 says, "by being annoying!!! It's HIS FAULT, NOT MINE!!"

Situation 10: LEAVE THE BABY ALONE
DS9 repeatedly tries to stick an ice cube down the baby's shirt, even when she's literally in my arms and I'm trying to turn away from him or go up the stairs.

I can give more examples if you want
I'm just SO TIRED
Consequences mean nothing.
Rewards mean nothing.
They don't want to change or compromise, they just see the worst in each other and want to get what they want.
I am just so TIRED

Last edited by bigsis144 on Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Teal

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:35 pm

Wow. This sounds like ALOT. I'm not sure what I would do. Cry? It so oubfs like ds9 needs professional help.

notshanarishona

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:42 pm

The scariest scenario is definitely the knife but the overall picture does not sound safe . I would try and your son urgent psychiatric help and really not leave him alone for a second. It doesn't sound safe .

bigsis144

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:43 pm

I read "The Explosive Child" and all I did was sob, because it scared me so much. I felt so lost and unsupported (DH isn't home much except Shabbos) at implementing any of the techniques, and

I JUST WANT THINGS TO GET BETTER FASTER, OKAY?
I HAVE READ SO MANY PARENTING BOOKS AND I UNDERSTAND THAT KIDS BEHAVIOR CAN CHANGE AT A GLACIAL RATE, BUT THIS IS DANGEROUS AND SCARY

And I desperately need validation that this isn't just "boys will be boys" or that they'll "grow out of it and get along great when they grow up".

My mama instincts are SCREAMING at me to do SOMETHING.

We saw a social worker as a family when DS9 was only 5 because the sibling rivalry was already getting out of hand, but nothing really changed. The kids liked going and playing, but they just played, occasionally fighting in front of the LCSW and having to be physically separated there as well. Nothing got better in the long run.

DS9 has been seeing a counselor (with a master's degree, not a psy.d or ph.d - this is all I can afford at the moment, the place that takes insurance has us on a waiting list) for a few months. They play chess, draw... DS9 is very smart and mature one-on-one with adults, and I understand that therapy for kids is different than for adults in that you can't approach problems head-on the same way, but

I NEED THINGS TO CHANGE SOONER

Last edited by bigsis144 on Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:48 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

Coffee

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:45 pm

None of these examples sound at all normal. He sounds like he has severe anger management issues and impulsitivity. Have you considered medicating?That with a combination of weekly therapy. It certainly helps calm down and diffuse. No child should suffer from the trauma of an older brother doing this, you need to protect your younger children. How does your husband react to him acting like this?

ectomorph

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:49 pm

Does ds9 have an evaluation for adhd? My friend had similar and it improved once they started natural lithium, magnesium and a couple of adhd and mood medications. It wasn't easy but the kid is doing amazing now
Without medication he didnt care about consequences.

newmother

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:49 pm

This is not about sibling rivalry, it's seems that ds9 has no ablity to regulate his emotions and explodes when he gets upset. He needs individual therapy to learn ways to cope with annoyance, express his feelings, and calm down.

mha3484

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:49 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I agree with this. Normally I am not one to insist on a PHD/PsyD over a Social worker but in this case I would look to get him a full evaluation done by the most experienced child psych you can find.

ectomorph

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:51 pm

I did therapy and ritalin as a teen. I was never anything like this, but I do remember feeling out of control, and medication helped me get the initial impulse control, while therapy helped me put new behaviors in practice.

There's hope - I haven't been to therapy or needed meds since I got married. Bh I think getting older helped as well.

Shabbosiscoming

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:55 pm

Hugs. This sounds overwhelming and scary for the whole family. This is not just boys will be boys.
I think you should get your son a psych eval, and soon. You want to make sure his behavior gets under control before he gets bigger and stronger. Because one day he will IYH be bigger than you. And a teenager with these behavior can be truly life threatening for everyone.

trixx

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:58 pm

Not one situation is normal and it has nothing to do with sibling rivalry. If ds9 didn't have a younger brother and sister he would be taking it out on classmates, play dates or you. Definitely sounds like he needs professional help which is no reflection on your parenting, how many books you have read or what diet he is on. He needs help and possibly/probably meds.

thunderstorm

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:04 pm

OP, hugs to you for dealing with this. I’d lose my mind. This is NOT sibling rivalry. This is very serious and DS9 needs professional help which I see you got him. All I can say is to be kind to yourself as you go through this. It sounds really difficult , scary and exhausting.

bigsis144

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:05 pm

DS9 had a full psych ed eval at the end of first grade (he'll be going into 4th grade this fall), when things weren't nearly this bad.

No medication recommended, no disorders or autism diagnosed. All they said "he's a very intelligent kid who feels like an equal to the adults in his life and has trouble recognizing his own emotions. Just give him firm boundaries and lots of love."

He is able to keep it together at school (except for a few minor incidents), so lots of the professionals I've seen think that's a good sign - if it was a brain chemistry thing, he wouldn't be able to "turn it off" as easily. I think he tries very hard to fit in at school and that's WHY he comes home ready to explode - he's been bottling up his rage all day.

Thank you so much for the validation, everybody. My mother-in-law will say things like, "I don't know how you let him talk to you like that! He needs a good smack upside the head." or "I raised 3 boys, all of them idiots, and they all lived to be functioning adults."

DH has Aspergers and isn't home much. He tries to break up fights when he's home, but he's waaay less proactive than me, and doesn't do the positive/empathy stuff without it sounding super duper forced and awkward.

Last edited by bigsis144 on Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:05 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

And I desperately need validation that this isn't just "boys will be boys" or that they'll "grow out of it and get along great when they grow up".

My mama instincts are SCREAMING at me to do SOMETHING.

Im giving you that validation. This is not boys will be boys" and if your son does not get the help he needs, this will get worse.

Your mama instincts are right on target. Good for you. And you're not at all too late-do something now.

I strongly recommend you take DS9 to be evaluated by a highly recommended neuropsychologist. One of the bigwigs. Even if you (likely) will need to pay privately.
Get a solid evaluation of your son so that you know if he has a diagnosis you should be dealing with.

Right now, a weekly therapy session with a social worker is nice, but thats like giving penicillin to a child who "isnt feeling well", and thats all you know. Maybe he needs a different antibiotic? Maybe an antiviral? Maybe a nebulizer? Or maybe its actually Celiac Disease and he needs to go off gluten. Or maybe he has a broken ankle and needs a cast! You need to find out exactly what is causing your dear child to behave this way, before you can go about helping him.

Kudos to you, and much hatzlacha!

ETA-Im surprised this got a hug.
Did I really say something so controversial?

Last edited by little neshamala on Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:12 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

White

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:06 pm

I have a son like that.
He was on adhd meds and abilify to regulate mood swings.
I walked on eggshells all the time.
Bh today he's much better. The last few years were lots of ups and down.
But I found out that he was molested as a child, can't say for sure but it was probably the cause of this terrible anger and aggressive behaviour that he couldn't control.
Do find a very good therapist and then daven, daven, daven that he should be the right shaliach because my son went to at least 5 therapist and while I can't say it didn't help at all, it was not af much as I wanted...
Good luck on this long journey! Hug

amother

White

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:09 pm

Is it possible he's being bullied in school and taking it out on his siblings when he gets home?

naturalmom5

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:10 pm

GET OFF IMAMOTHER THIS SECOND AND GET PROFESSIONAL INTERVENTION...

WHERE IS THEIR FATHER WHILE ALL THIS IS GOING ON

dancingqueen

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:12 pm

Oh man. Is it comforting to hear that you are a great writer and I was absorbed reading your post? But I have to second getting ds9 to a psychiatrist for an evaluation ASAP. The knife and grabbing the baby and putting her under blankets are the scariest.

Are they in camp during the day or home?

amother

Aqua

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:15 pm

This isnt normal sibling rivalry. At all. This sounds dangerous and psychologically harmful for everyone. Especially the other children. Your run of the mill average therapy isnt enough. Its not like a big kid that you can get space between them, he is still little. Which means with the right intervention there is still hope.

I wouldnt run to diagnose him but for the safety of everyone would medicate if it would help and am general very anti medacating. He sounds like he needs a lot of help. Sure you can learn to parent but I don't think that alone would do it, while it might help.a bit, the anger and jealousy and impulse control and empathy need fixing.learning... You need a top child psychologist with an awesome track record. Make sure the track record is there. Even if you cant afford it. If you don't stress it well now, sadly the bills might be much much more later.

bigsis144

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:16 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

GET OFF IMAMOTHER THIS SECOND AND GET PROFESSIONAL INTERVENTION...

WHERE IS THEIR FATHER WHILE ALL THIS IS GOING ON

I’ve spoken to lots of people (the psychotherapy place I just got off the phone with an hour ago has “no openings at this time”, and I broke down crying on the line).
it’s Erev Shabbos, so I won’t get more calls done today.

I’m on imamother because I needed chizuk to keep going and finding help.