Normal sibling rivalry vs. scary violence

amother

Red

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:18 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

I have a difficult child, more so recently , temper/bad language/slamming doors. he behaves very well outside the house, could it still be PANDAS, or would we see that across the board?

PANDAS presents as sudden onset where the parent clearly can see a difference from day 1 to day 2 and feels like where did my kid go since last week? So different!

me01

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:28 pm

Never hurts to rule out. Begin by getting rapid and overnight strep culture for this child (and perhaps rest of family) and move on from there. We are seeing that many kids have a shift in personality and maybe some leg pain or trouble sleeping/eating as their only symptoms of strep and once treated they are fine. Others who go on to develop PANDAS may have symptoms that escalate with strep and even exposure to strep and although symptoms may decrease with antibiotics , they will not fully remit without more extensive or long-term treatment.
Also to answer your question, changes are not necessarily evident in all settings. Kids with more minor inflammation may be able to control symptoms for a period before they break though. I liken it to a bad migraine. We may be able to keep it together at work but then may collapse in bed at home unable to move, work purposefully or hide our irritability any longer.

bigsis144

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:29 pm

Exhausted.

Current plan of action from his therapist: work in emotional regulation skills and collaborative problem solving. I need to be a good role model for not losing my cool. Have neutral time together to maintain his security in my love for him.

I can only work on behavior, not the “why”. Medication may dull his behavior but won’t help him build necessary coping skills.

amother

Tangerine

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:33 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

Medication can help him stay in control long enough to actually learn and practice coping skills.

amother

Lime

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:49 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

Really not impressed with that therapist. Yes, it's important to build coping skills and not just rely on medication, but you've been doing that and it hasn't been working. And you don't have time to be trying this and that method that may take years to actually get results. Your younger children are in danger NOW. Your oldest is suffering terribly NOW. There really needs to be a medical doctor involved, behavior modification is simply not enough at this point.

This is the danger in talking about medication as a "last resort". It's a lot more complicated than that. Sure, medication usually isn't the first step. And it should never be the only thing you do. But it's not this crazy thing that needs to be saved for the absolute worst case scenario. It should be something to try when therapy isn't making enough progress for what you need. This isn't a kid who's a little exuberant and giving you a run for your money. You're not going to be "drugging your kid to make your life easier" (frankly, I've never met a single parent who has). Your son is a literal danger to the rest of your household and possibly himself. It's really time to up the level of intervention here.

mha3484

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:51 pm

I think that your therapist is mixed up. You have to swim upstream of the Behavior. You can work on it until you are blue in the face but until you get to the why its useless. My younger kid can hit me all the way home in the car and I can yell and punish but if hes hitting because hes hungry then the punishment is useless. My older kid had a horrible day in school this past year. He usually is decently behaved in class and this day was like the total opposite. I bit my instinct to get upset with him and went about our routine. He told me later on that a kid had kicked him in the hallway and for whatever reason it thew off his WHOLE day.

I use collaborative problem solving with my kids and it has shown me 99% of the time, there is a reason behind every behavior.

I really really really reccomend going on youtube and watching Ross Greene's videos. I find them much easier to digest then the book and there are people who film themselves having a Plan B conversation. I also found that to be very helpful.

amother

Tangerine

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:54 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

THATs what I said!! (I cried twice)

You're the mother = you're the boss. If this treatment plan is not working for you, you don't need to go along with it! There are many other therapists and doctors who will listen to you and value your input and agree to try what you feel is the next best step.

amother

Scarlet

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 4:44 pm

Op I have a difficult son (not to the extreme you describe) but nowhere in you op did you mention an approach you have with his dangerous behavior. You mentioned that you are loving which is great but I don't see you being firm.
My son gets a warning and then a punishment. I hate punishing him but I hate even more when my innocent kids are hurt by him and for them to witness such behavior.
My punishments are something that bothers him for example he loves being up for the Friday night meal and a couple times I told him he cannot stay up for the whole meal and I followed through and made sure he goes up.I dont take away a full meal from him but its enough for him to be very upset and think 10 times before next time and it helps.
This same child gets more love than my others, hes at my side all the time and needs to talk and talk about his day as if hes an only child. We have a great relationship and he has a lot of respect for me.
My heart goes out to you, I cant imagine going through this but your other kids are in danger. He needs help but so do you and dh to learn to properly deal with him.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 5:17 pm

with some types of children the punishment type of discipline described simply does not work and is not what is called for.
Another vote for Ross Greene over authoritarian style parenting. Though really whatever works (within reason obviously).
With some kids intensifying punishments in degree and frequency does not work. And in these types of situations actually can up the ante and feed into intensifying a negative dynamic R"L.
Some children, granted a minority, really require more and a different approach beyond "regular parenting" which is good enough for most kids B"H.
al pi darko

hugs and hatzlocha to you Op may you be benchted to find the right shaliach and have much nachas from all your children

bigsis144

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 5:34 pm

@amother Scarlet, I know you mean well but punishment does NOT work for this child.

Why do you think he would stay in his room for a time-out or as a punishment?? I gave the example of having to carry him up the stairs when he wouldn’t put space between himself and his brother...
he will come out time and time again, laughing maniacally like it’s a challenge... he has broken furniture throwing things around his room, he snapped one of the railing bars on the staircase...

I gave the example of a monetary “fine” for property destruction (paying for a broken can of sunscreen)... besides not connecting the punishment and the crime (DS9 claims it was his brother’s fault for being annoying!), DS9 followed me around for the rest of the evening, demanding to know where the money I had “stolen” from him was. He ransacked my purse, yelled at the baby (“where is it!??!!” as if a baby would know?!?)...

What consequences do you suggest?

FranticFrummie

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 5:39 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

with some types of children the punishment type of discipline you describe simply does not work and is not what is called for.
Another vote for Ross Greene over authoritarian style parenting. Though really whatever works (within reason obviously).
With some kids intensifying punishments in degree and frequency does not work.
Some children, granted a minority, really require more and a different approach beyond "regular parenting" which is good enough for most kids B"H.

hugs and hatzlocha to you Op may you be benchted to find the right shaliach and have much nachas from all your children

THIS. Some kids know exactly what the consequences/punishments will be, and they decide that it's totally worth it to do something bad and get in trouble later.

Some kids enjoy the look on their parents' faces when they show that they don't care about the punishment. (This is where ODD becomes more obvious.)

Some kids even enjoy the adrenaline rush of being punished. It's a weird feedback loop, and they process all input as a positive feeling, regardless of the parent's intent.

I think that medical screening for PANDAS and Lyme should come first.

After that, a FULL psych eval by someone who is more qualified than your wimpy therapist. ODD, psychopathy, sociopathy, and other personality disorders need to be considered.

He could have generalized anxiety, bipolar depression, or major depressive disorder. (I was showing signs of full blown bipolar depression by the time I was 12, and my parents just called me a "drama queen". My first serious suicide attempt was at age 13.)

You can be a calm role model all you want, but until you get to the bottom of WHY your child is so miserable and angry all the time, nobody is going to be safe or happy.

bigsis144

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 5:40 pm

Quote:

[7:26 AM, 3/15] DS9 just cursed me and told me he wished I'd have a terrible life, then knocked all the dining room chairs over and taunted, "what else can I mess up to punish Ema?"

[7:26 AM, 3/15] all because (a) I told him lemon meringue pie for breakfast isn't an option and (b) he hit DS6 hard enough to leave a perfect handprint on his back, so I said no videos for a whole day

[7:27 AM, 3/15] by "cursed me", I mean he literally yelled "CURSE YOU, EMA!!!"

[7:27 AM, 3/15] which is kind of cute, because he learned it from Snoopy saying, "Curse you, Red Baron!" in the Peanuts cartoons

[7:28 AM, 3/15] but my kids don't understand how fictional characters work and what they're allowed to copy and in what context

He has screamed for so hard and so long that he made himself vomit.
I’ve done the “human straight jacket” thing while getting scratched and bitten and keeping it going for 45 minutes at a time.

Trying to keep myself calm through this is so hard, and the emphasis from multiple therapists on me keeping MY cool has made me fixate on the times I ended up losing it.
I start to reframe all my attempts at discipline as traumatic, abusive events that justify his behavior...

It’s messed up all around.
Seeing a new therapist on Thursday...