Normal sibling rivalry vs. scary violence

amother

Lime

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:16 pm

This really requires significant professional attention. You should get him seen by a developmental pediatrician and psychiatrist. This is really not normal behavior. I have an autistic 8 year old, which is to say, he can be very impulsive, easily frustrated, easily melts down. He definitely fights with his younger siblings, and it does sometimes get a bit out of hand with the one right below him, but never to the degree you're describing. And also, he has never ever gotten physical with the youngest sibling, who is now 3, because he fully understands that the 3 year old is little and therefore doesn't understand as much as an older kid and also can get hurt more easily. 8 year old thinks of 3 year old as a baby and wants to take care of him, and laugh at his antics. Never wants to hurt him. And even the 6 year old, who he does sometimes smack around and call names, he doesn't truly want to hurt him either and is generally receptive to being pulled away and taken somewhere to calm down. Having autism, he has a whole team of various professionals working with him. I could never have done this on my own with parenting books. Please, I know it's overwhelming and will likely be expensive, but your other children aren't safe and this is beyond your capacity--not because you're incapable, but because your child has something going on that requires more than what any untrained parent can handle. You need more professionals involved, asap.

bigsis144

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:20 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Oh man. Is it comforting to hear that you are a great writer and I was absorbed reading your post? But I have to second getting ds9 to a psychiatrist for an evaluation ASAP. The knife and grabbing the baby and putting her under blankets are the scariest.

Are they in camp during the day or home?

Thanks, I journal a lot and my therapist (cuz yeah I’ve been in therapy for myself since DS6 was born for PPD, and I’ve had to learn not to blame all my parenting troubles on myself) thinks I’m quite expressive and eloquent 😊

They are in separate day camps. The two weeks they were home between school and camp was HELL.
They will be in the same school next year for the first time in their lives and I have no idea what to expect.

gibberish

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:21 pm

OP, I didn't read all the responses, but you need to take your son for another evaluation and push for a diagnosis and treatment plan. (WARNING there may be a wait of up to 1 year). See if you can qualify for an ASD diagnosis so he can get paid 1:1 ABA help. In the meantime he needs to see a qualified psychiatrist to help with impulsiveness and mood disorder. Document all these incidents so you can share with the professional.

I really feel your pain; everyday life must be extremely difficult!

Much Hatzlacha!

bigsis144

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:23 pm

little neshamala wrote:

Im giving you that validation. This is not boys will be boys" and if your son does not get the help he needs, this will get worse.

Your mama instincts are right on target. Good for you. And you're not at all too late-do something now.

I strongly recommend you take DS9 to be evaluated by a highly recommended neuropsychologist. One of the bigwigs. Even if you (likely) will need to pay privately.
Get a solid evaluation of your son so that you know if he has a diagnosis you should be dealing with.

Right now, a weekly therapy session with a social worker is nice, but thats like giving penicillin to a child who "isnt feeling well", and thats all you know. Maybe he needs a different antibiotic? Maybe an antiviral? Maybe a nebulizer? Or maybe its actually Celiac Disease and he needs to go off gluten. Or maybe he has a broken ankle and needs a cast! You need to find out exactly what is causing your dear child to behave this way, before you can go about helping him.

Kudos to you, and much hatzlacha!

ETA-Im surprised this got a hug.
Did I really say something so controversial?

I gave you the hug!! It was me saying “thank you, thank you so much for the validation, I really needed that”

amother

Lime

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:29 pm

I also want to add, yes, there are huge waiting lists for a lot of doctors, neuropsychs, etc. Don't despair and hang up. Get on that waiting list. Request to be on their cancelation list (a list for people to call in the event of a cancelation). Get appointments with a several, and once one gets you in the door first, you can cancel the others.

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:34 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

I gave you the hug!! It was me saying “thank you, thank you so much for the validation, I really needed that”

Lol! How refreshing, finally a normal hug!
Im sending you many strong hugs right back. You can do this.
May I just say that your DS9 is very lucky to have been born to you, and not to a different mother. You are ready and willing to get him help. Lucky child. B"EH it will all get much better.

Also, one more thing-be careful not to "push for a certain diagnosis". The treatment/approach will vary greatly from one diagnosis/condition to the next.
You do NOT simply want to get him on a random program. You want to find out what is his deal.

You can do this.

rakcna

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:49 pm

As a pediatric psychiatric and developmental health professional, I wanted to weigh in. I am writing under my screen name (even though anonymity is important) so that you can PM me if needed.

First of all, I am so impressed by how you are handling a tough situation. I also wanted to validate how difficult it is to access services especially taking finances into account. That being said, there are a number of components of your post that I wanted to respond to.

1. I am not making diagnoses or anything like that, but based on what you have written, this child could use a Crisis Evaluation. This works differently in different states, but in most locations in the USA, this could involve going to a local emergency room, a local crisis center, or call a mobile crisis hotline.

2. From a legal perspective, while it may not be comfortable doing that, it is something that is really important because it demonstrates that as a parent you are both seeking help for this child as well as preventing your other children from sustaining serious injury. That is not to say that you aren’t protecting your children, but it is unfortunate that some municipal departments might be overzealous. You mentioned two potential events (your 6 year old needed care for a cut incurred during violence, as well as your infant BH not sustaining injury but having been buried under pillows) that could have led to investigation. By making clear that part of the reason you are seeking help is to ensure everyone’s safety, you are creating a positive paper trail.

3. In terms of accessing services, once you present for crisis evaluation, most departments and organizations can escalate the process. In fact, some states have devices like in-home counseling that require at least one crisis evaluation prior to eligibility.

Please PM me if you need help or have questions. It is a very challenging area to navigate, and is obviously even more difficult when you are living it.

amother

Brown

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 3:00 pm

ectomorph wrote:

Does ds9 have an evaluation for adhd? My friend had similar and it improved once they started natural lithium, magnesium and a couple of adhd and mood medications. It wasn't easy but the kid is doing amazing now
Without medication he didnt care about consequences.

I think ectomorph is on to something here. DS lacked impulse control until he was medicated for ADHD. We have had crazy incidents also. Bottles being thrown throw at sibling. Once we needed to get stitches. DS is a model child now and receives complements for midos.

What I found helpful is to make him say sorry and show him how he hurt his sibling. Teach him the consequences of his actions. More important than replacing the sunscreen is to discuss what he did to his bother and make him apologize.

dena613

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 3:05 pm

Sending you hugs, hugs, and hugs! I'm crying for you. This must be so hard and so scary!

Are there any frum mental health or medical askanim/organizations that you can reach out to? Maybe they would be able to help subsidize his therapy and treatment, or refer you to someone really good, or help you get an earlier appointment.

Maybe venting to your mother-in-law isn't a good idea. She obviously doesn't realize how severe the situation is, and might just be making you feel worse.

Ideas for now to help keep siblings safer:
It's there any way you can child proof your house from dangerous things? Like knives? (I don't know if that would be possible. A 9 yo has access to everything!!)
Can you send your6yo to friends after camp a few times a week?to keep him away from his brother.
Can you arrange to get a mother's helper or chessed girl? Call the local HS and request a mother helper for next year. She can grip keep baby safe from bro. And provide you with some sanity for a few hours a week.?even more, you might be able to hire an 8th grader to be a mom helper for a few dollars an hour...

mha3484

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 3:08 pm

I have a child with severe ADHD who has never laid a hand on anyone. He's got a lot of issues but hes not violent.

I have another younger kid who is sensory/anxious and he hits and throws things. Anxiety in children often manifests as anger and defiance. So dont go in with any specific diagnosis in mind because its often what we least expect.

Your amazing for wanting to help your son.

amother

Orange

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 3:20 pm

dena613 wrote:

I agree with most of what is written above, but I would not get a chesed girl or 8th grader... if you don't know how he will react to her, it is not fair to bring another person's child into your house.

thunderstorm

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 3:56 pm

mha3484 wrote:

You could find a girl to take the younger kids out of the house. She can take the baby for a walk or DS6 to the park if that helps you.

This. When I was a teen I did chesed for a family and was a mother’s helper every day after school. They had a special needs child who needed the mothers 24 hour attention. So I didn’t handle the SN child . Instead I did homework, served supper , did bath time and read bed time stories to the other kids . The older and younger ones including the baby. By the time I was done the mother was able to handle actual bedtime for everyone after I left.

amother

Lilac

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 3:56 pm

Way more than normal sibling rivalry- esp knife, burying baby and shaking baby! If he is in play therapy, which your post seems to indicate- the therapist can def bring it up directly without beating around the bush.
My kid had moments of rage like this when he was on adderall- we changed meds and it improved tremendously but still have issues w frustration tolerance and impulse control which we are actively working on in play therapy in addition to adjusting his adhd meds.
Much hatzlocha- but def get help ASAP even if it means the crisis intervention mentioned above

amother

Mint

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 4:11 pm

mha3484 wrote:

Youre right- you never know what the issue may be. My son was angry and violent among other issues and was “diagnosed” with spd and is a different child with appropriate therapy. When I took him for his first eval, I was crying and I said my son is such a bully and has no remorse. I am forever grateful for when he said- no youre wrong- your child is super sensitive and super frightened but is in chaos flight or fight mode. May you find the apropriate help and may you also find the wonderful child that is definately hiding in there somewhere.