Normal sibling rivalry vs. scary violence

amother

Powderblue

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 9:04 am

I think in home intervention, with a behaviorist, is essential to start. You need a solid behavior plan. And of course a psych eval with medication ASAP

imasinger

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 9:25 am

amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:

I think in home intervention, with a behaviorist, is essential to start. You need a solid behavior plan. And of course a psych eval with medication ASAP

And for amother lemon, too. But it starts with the right shaliach who can diagnose accurately. Then the right shaliach to carry things forward properly.

amother

Puce

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 11:28 am

I just want to say I am thinking of you and hoping you find the right help soon!
I am glad to hear you will have at least some short term help. I am also relieved to hear that you are already always keeping the baby with you. I am sorry then for warning you about that in my prior post.
It was unclear to me for some reason if that was the case.
I also wonder if you would consider switching DS to a special school. That way school should be a more relaxed place for him so he doesn't have to bottle up rage all day only to let it out at home. It is possible to make such changes in the middle of the year if need be, although you would probably need a diagnosis to do that. Hopefully you get one soon!
Hug

shanarishona

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 12:21 pm

I just saw an ad for MASK 718 758 0400
I don’t know - could this be helpful?
Says it’s confidential
Www.maskparents.com

Stars

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 12:26 pm

I completely disagree with all the people who are saying to focus on his diet. This is not the time or place.

oneofakind

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 3:26 pm

As a pediatric mental health professional, you need somebody good and experienced to diagnose and set up a treatment plan which may involve medication. Getting inaccurate diagnoses will just frustrate you and prolong the agony.
What does his therapist say about all this? What are some consequences that could be put into place when he does something dangerous?
Can DS6 go away for a "vacation" for his own safety and sanity?

Good luck on this journey and you didn't cause it! (you couldn't even if you wanted to Smile

shanarishona

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 3:30 pm

An opposite the ad for mask, intentionally I assume, was a piece by sara Chana Radcliffe on “the violent child”. I’m sure you can email family first if you want a copy. But mostly just so you know you’re not alone. such a hard situation. I’m davening for you and for the other mothers on here who posted that they are in similar situations

bigsis144

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 3:46 pm

In response to "how are the professionals you've met with told you to deal with this?" here's an email I sent to both my therapist and the family's social worker (we have since started seeing new people). Also, this is from before the baby was born, in case you're trying to figure out where she was at the time.

I wrote:

Quote:

DS9 and I had a hard day yesterday. After he was hurting DS6 repeatedly and my "don't hurt your brother!" didn't work, DS9 took a flying leap to kick DS6 with both feet and I started trying to carry him upstairs to a timeout in his room.

Along the way, DS9's thrashing made me drop him (from less than his own height, I was mostly straight-jacketing his arms and carrying him upright), and he hit his face against the carpeted stairs.

He believes I did it on purpose, that I made one of his adult teeth loose, and he was hysterical because he's "not going to grow a third set of teeth!!". DH checked, his teeth are fine. I took a nap for a few hours to wait for DS9 to cool off (because sometimes being unconscious is the only solution to this hopelessness), and though DH tried to nudge DS9 into apologizing ('DS9 says he's sorry."), DS9 was vehement that he hates me, is never going to talk to me, etc. DS9 kept up the grudge for HOURS. Turning his back on me, closing his ears when I talked, pretending he didn't hear anything I said....

Before bed, he seemed slightly calmer, though still hurt, and he brought it up: "Why did you drop me??"

I calmly told him, "You didn't stop kicking DS6. I asked you to move away from him more than once, and when you didn't listen, I had to move you. I'm sorry that you got hurt, I didn't mean to drop --"

DS9: (exploding) "YES YOU DID!! YOU'RE STRONG ENOUGH TO CARRY ME - YOU DROPPED ME ON PURPOSE!!! MY TEETH ARE NEVER GOING TO GROW BACK!!! YOU DROPPED ME ON THE STAIRS!!!!"

Me (not yelling, but slowly and through my teeth): "You are getting bigger, DS9. I can ask you to control yourself, and I can try to move you when you don't. But eventually you're going to get too big for me to carry -- you already almost are -- and then all that will be left to stop you when you're being dangerous and mean is yourself."

And I left the room before I fell apart further. Because whether I showed him that I was angry, or I was hurt, it would mean he won.

I physically felt sick for hours afterwards (yay, stress-induced IBS), and before I went to bed, I put a note on the inside of his door for him to see in the morning:

"Dear DS9, I love you. Today is a new day. We can both try again. I will always love you, no matter what. Love, Ema."

In the morning, he slipped this note under my door while I was getting dressed (I fixed his spelling to make it easier to understand):

"I got your pathetic note. I still don't like you."

followed by

"Oh, and how do you feel about that?"

All morning, he's been passing messages to me through DS6, so that not only do I have to know that the abuse is coming from DS9, but he's making DS6 his "slave" and turning him into a hatred-spewing child too.

I haven't yelled yet, but it's barely 8:30am. I don't know how to take this for 12 hours. HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO TAKE THIS FOR 12 HOURS??

and the two responses I got were

Quote:

Thank you so much for reaching out and letting me know about this. I’m sorry to hear that you had such a challenging few days. I know it can feel so bad when DS9 is so angry with you. How did the rest of yesterday go?

Quote:

bigsis, with all of this acting out and difficulties, I must say, I really love your comment to DS9: "...and then all that will be left to stop you from ---is yourself."

Also, the note was lovely. It must have hurt to have him use it against you with a vengence.

I have some feedback:

* Intervene earlier; as soon as there is aggression, go to them, stoop down eye level, let him/them know that it has to stop right now. It might be wise to have them separate right then and there before it escalates.

* If it has escalated, and it comes to carrying him upstairs, you must have your husband do it if he is around. This is too much for you.

* DS9 is used to manipulating you by telling you how much he "hates you" etc. He is a very little boy who is having trouble dealing with all of his emotions.

I guess the lack of urgency in their tones and the emphasis on my feelings made me feel it's all about my subjective perception of the incident and not that THERE IS OBJECTIVELY SOMETHING CRAZY GOING ON IN MY HOUSE.

Shouldn't a professional have told me that more urgent intervention is necessary?? (Yes, I spoke to both in person after these initial emails, and I did not expect full responses between sessions/after hours. But this was the general tone of most of our interactions)

ectomorph

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 3:54 pm

The knife story needs to be referred to
As well, you need to emphasize how you feel unsafe and that your other children are unsafe.

sequoia

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 3:55 pm

Things are different now that you have an infant in your home.

amother

Tangerine

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 4:01 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

Quote:

and the two responses I got were

Quote:

What you described in this post is not as concerning as what you described in your op. It seems his behavior has gotten more dangerous with time.

amother

Mustard

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 4:07 pm

I’m going to comment on the incident where you dropped ds9
Next time if it gets to the point, or better yet BEFORE it gets to that point, grab the baby and ds6 and all 3 lock yourselves in your room.
If you are afraid he is hurting himself call HATZALAH.
Have a key handy that you can throw out the window so they can come in

amother

Powderblue

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 5:46 pm

Not all professionals are competent to address severe behavior issues. It would depend on their training, experience, exposure, and expertise.

And I agree with the others that things have escalated significantly since then. I think perhaps there is still some denial on your part that is making you ruminate on what past therapists did or did not say, and if they didn't see the urgency, perhaps it's not so bad? That is a defense mechanism on your part. The reality is right now, what you have right in front of you. And that is, a child who is a serious danger to his siblings. His behavior falls squarely in the category of severe conduct disorder, which is a dangerous, serious place to be. Your other children are sustaining serious, emotional harm from this. Forget about past therapists. Take care of what you have in front of you, right now.

sequoia

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 5:54 pm

amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:

And I agree with the others that things have escalated significantly since then. I think perhaps there is still some denial on your part that is making you ruminate on what past therapists did or did not say, and if they didn't see the urgency, perhaps it's not so bad? That is a defense mechanism on your part. The reality is right now, what you have right in front of you. And that is, a child who is a serious danger to his siblings. His behavior falls squarely in the category of severe conduct disorder, which is a dangerous, serious place to be. Your other children are sustaining serious, emotional harm from this. Forget about past therapists. Take care of what you have in front of you, right now.

This, 100 times.

octopus

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 6:06 pm

You're paying money to get advice like that via email? I can give you advice like that for FREE. I know nothing is instant and everything takes time. As awful as it sounds , this kid probably needs meds. Yes, your other kids are in physical danger. If you want this child to remain under the same roof as you, this is probably what you have to do. To the poster that mentioned change diet, this family is past that point. They can experiment while doing meds, but it sounds like lives are at stake, and while meds in usually something I would never instantly recommend, this is an extreme case calling for extreme measures. Of course meds isn't the magical solution, but that in conjunction with therapy to learn coping mechanisms. Enough with social workers putting all the responsibility on YOU.

amother

Lavender

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 6:16 pm

I have been following this thread with a pit in my stomach....this hits so close to home; it's painful to read. Like one or two amothers who replied earlier, I had/have a very similar situation at home, due to (early) childhood abuse.
If you have any reason to suspect anything like this might be the case for your son (though I hope not....) please have a trauma-informed therapist deal with this - treatment for trauma is entirely different from behavioral centered therapy.

Laiya

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 7:11 pm

OP, I can only imagine how difficult this is, and my heart goes out to you.

Your ds sounds coldly manipulative and severely lacking in empathy, and it's chilling to read a description of such behavior in a young child. Aside from the knife, his looking to harm the baby, even putting ice cubes down her shirt, is beyond frightening and way, way beyond normal.

Some posters suggested this may be the result of trauma, but I wonder if treatments used for psychopathy or narcissistic personality disorder might be helpful. Maybe these can be brought up as specific concerns when you have him evaluated.

sushilover

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 7:32 pm

I have a brother who behaved this way.
He sat on the younger siblings heads and threatened to turn them into pancakes.
He got angry and smashed a window with his bare hands and needed stitches.
He once tried to force feed me a disgusting mixture of old apples, vinegar, and cake when I was five.
(I don't remember too much more as he is significantly older than me)

Unlike your son, he was not well behaved outside of the home and he was banned from shul and constantly in trouble in school.

My parents sent him to an out of town yeshiva from age 12 - 18. He didn't get any diagnosis. As far as I know, he simply needed time to learn to regulate his emotions and develop empathy. Now I can honestly say he's my favorite brother. He's kind and smart and an absolutely amazing father to his kids. Ironically, his kids are the most refined and well- behaved out of all of ours including my own!

I don't know what will work for your son, but you sound like you are doing everything in your power to help him right now. There is also some really good advice on this thread as far as medication and psychiatric evaluation. I just want you to know that there is hope!

aricelli

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 8:14 pm

Laiya wrote:

OP- I was so so worried that my little boy was so lacking in empathy and resembled a narc at times. It is so hard to be scared of your own child. But his therapists taught me that there was a reason he was acting the way he was. He was not inherently “bad” he just needed so much help. And with the proper help my child blossomed. Your child will as well. Theres so much help out there. Children are not bad without reason. He is hurting too!!!

amother

Beige

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 8:57 pm

Unfortunately, this is only the beginning of a very long journey for you. I am hoping you and your family get competent help!

Does he actually have a diagnosis? The therapists you've seen through insurance must have given him one in order to bill.

This sounds very much like Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Especially the line "a child who thinks he is equal to adults."

Good luck on your journey! We are here to support you.