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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note

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amother

Olive

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 2:30 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Assuming you are not 12 and have lived in a RW community a few years
It's not about halacha or Haskafa

It's about culture . Married women work and need to deal with therapist doctors repairman attorneys etc...
Single girls often are very sheltered and have zero contact with men especially if they don't work in a secular place

Hashkafa and culture very much overlap.

SixOfWands

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 2:40 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

That said, assuming that (1) bentching is over, and (2) the hostess has excused herself due to her health, but (3) the host, (4) along with several couples are still at the table, is it (5) "clueless" for single women to remain at the table along with the couples? Is it (6) clueless for them to remain the open-plan living area, on couches, reading while (7) the host is at the dining table with other guests or even (8) alone, learning? (9) Would it be rude for them to go into one of the closed rooms without being told to do so?

And (10) who is cleaning up after dinner? (11) How big is this house with its open plan and separate seforim room and sukkah room and rooms for the kids and guest rooms enough for several women (and are the couple staying as well)? (12) Do you show someone to the door of your dining room (that doesn't actually have a door, since its open plan) as opposed to the front (or back) door?

Enquiring minds what to know.

amother

Linen

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 2:44 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

I'm very much part of the RW community and don't know of any culture where single women are expected to leave the table while the married ones are still there!

zaq

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 2:53 pm

Pardon me for being a dinosaur still clinging to musty mid-century standards of etiquette, but it seems to me that any dinner guest, regardless of age, gender, race, religion, creed, marital, reproductive or employment status should understand that when the hostess takes herself off to take a nap, it’s time for guests to scramez-vous.

amother

Orchid

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 2:54 pm

zaq wrote:

If the host is still sitting at the table with some couples, chatting?

naturalmom5

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 2:57 pm

WhatFor wrote:

I think by the end it was pretty clear that there WERE still married women at the table when OP wanted the single/divorced women to leave. It's just that they had their husbands with them. OP thought her single guests were clueless for not knowing to leave the public areas of the house when OP left, even if her DH and other married couples were still socializing at the table.

It's funny bc Urban Gypsy wrote that I was one of the people advising to say something and she just rejected it. Well tbf, I qualified it by saying it would be rude and hurtful to say if the married women were still hanging out and better not say that at all.
So it wasn't a solution she could use.

The whole theory behind the values were confusing. In Jewish law, if you think it's bad for men and women to mingle, it's a million times worse when a woman is married. If you think single women are worse than married because they're going to steal your DH, that's a Christian mentality. If you think single women are worse because they don't have a male chaperone, that's an Islamic mentality.

In the frum world, it's confusing to be okay with multiple unrelated married couples sleeping in the same house, socializing in public areas, but not okay with single women joining. It doesn't add up hashkafically.

amother

Orchid

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 3:02 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Not sure why you keep repeating this. What exactly is the relevance to the thread? Every RW girl has been a guest at friends for shabbos, or while in seminary, and knows shabbos table etiquette. And the op of that thread said they're from a different background, not RW, anyway so it's really not applicable.

SixOfWands

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 3:10 pm

zaq wrote:

But if they're house guests, where should they scram? Do they have to go to their bedrooms? Or is it acceptable for them to read or chat on the couch, particularly if the host (and other guests) is still in the living area?

Amarante

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 3:14 pm

zaq wrote:

But those aren't the facts - or at least those don't appear to be the facts.

Of course, if one is asked for dinner, a guest reads signs that the dinner is over - even assuming it is a dinner, do you assume that a single lady must leave dinner if married women are still at the table.

But the actual scenario is even murkier - if staying overnight someplace, how is it clear that one must vacate the dining room? living room? (not clear what room is being discussed since couches at some point came into the scenario) when the hostess goes to bed - especially if there are married women still on the couches or wherever.

If OP presented a scenario clearly instead of consistently changing what was going on, of course there is a way to present whatever is going on tactfully.

However, I can't fathom a situation in which a single woman instinctively knows that she is to exit into purdah when socializing in a situation where other women are present. I don't even know how one would state this without seeming odd - Do you say - Ms. Single Woman, When I leave a room even though there are other married women still in the room, you must immediately exit the room because my husband is uncomfortable if he is in a room with a single woman but not a married woman.

amother

Copper

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:03 pm

zaq wrote:

OP of the other here.

Even in the secular world female guests who respect the wife do not hang out until 1 a.m. with the man of the house if the wife must go to bed especially when they are not friends or family. What do they think he is doing when he takes out a book? That's not a hint to them to keep chattering away.

For the most part there are not other couples here Friday nights. These are women who have no other place to go unless they rent a hotel room or stay with family. I know only one divorced woman that lives within walking distance. To host these women for even one meal, they need a place to sleep.

DH does not want to socialize with these guests. He doesn't mind if they are my guests.

I wrote before that I stopped reading the thead when it turned nasty. This could be why others made the same suggestion first.

It's despicable that my marriage was called in question because I open up my home to people that no one wants.

Would you really start a thread by saying you live in a very large house with many rooms? Show me a single thread that started with OP's floor plan. TBH I don't think about the size of my house or compare it to others. It wouldn't occur to me that I need to say I have multiple sitting areas outside the dining room. If I did, I would be attacked for this.

Further, it is height of stupidity the suggestions that I put these comfort of these strangers above the comfort of DH.

The suggestion that these are some strange social constructs DH and I made up negates the whole norm of not mixing genders.

No one wants to house these ladies. I have tried to place them.

There are only 2 solutions here:
1. Close my house to single women as sleep over guests.
2. Tell them the house "rules" nicely. Since these rules are common etiquette, I rather avoid the awkwardness, so I haven't decided what I will do. I will probably choose the first solution and continue to feel bad.

Amarante

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:10 pm

OP You seem to have changed the fact situation again.

Obviously at 1 AM a polite guest has long retired to their sleeping quarters and if they are in fact still glued to the chair with only your husband present, one can be direct as in can I show you to your bedroom. Do you need anything. A normal houseguest would not put either the host or hostess in a position where they are still in the public spaces unless they were urged to stay.

I think the single woman is a red herring. I would want any person I was hosting to go to their room way before 1 am unless there was some kind of late night party going on. But I don’t care about gender or age. If I am hosting a stranger or casual acquaintance they need to be in their room at that hour

amother

Olive

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:16 pm

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

OP of the other here.

......

There are only 2 solutions here:
1. Close my house to single women as sleep over guests.
2. Tell them the house "rules" nicely. Since these rules are common etiquette, I rather avoid the awkwardness, so I haven't decided what I will do. I will probably choose the first solution and continue to feel bad.

on the bolded - the second half does not logically flow from the first half.

Who is feeling awkward?

amother

Blonde

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:24 pm

What kind of hints do you use? "Do you need me to walk you home/Sorry I can't walk you home" usually works for guests who are not sleeping over; "Let me show you to your room" works for sleepover guests.

amother

Olive

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:29 pm

To rewrite the scenario. OP and DH often have only single women guests at their Friday night meal - they are really only guests of OP - her husband puts up with them, as needed.

When OP leaves the table to go to sleep - guests don't understand that social time is over, perhaps because OP DH is a lovely man.

The easy solution is for DH to simply say - Ladies - I'm going to read a sefer now - if you'd like to continue to schmooze with each other - my DW left the light on for you in the Succah Room.

If its one guest. DH says - Shabbat Shalom, I'm going to read now - DW left a Shabbos light for you to read in your room.

His needs are met.

amother

Copper

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:35 pm

Amarante wrote:

The facts have never changed. DH is not uncomfortable if his single male guests are up late with him. Can you really not see the difference?

cream+sugar

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:38 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

I think a sukkah room is a permanently enclosed large balcony with a retractable roof..

THANK YOU! I was genuinely losing my mind wondering what that could possibly be.

amother

Olive

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:39 pm

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

The facts have never changed. DH is not uncomfortable if his single male guests are up late with him. Can you really not see the difference?

The difference is - if the single men are still at the table - its not common etiquette or whatever that the women should be cognisant that they should leave the table.

amother

Copper

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:39 pm

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

I couldn't say something that ridiculous when the guests obviously know where their rooms are.

amother

Olive

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:42 pm

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

I couldn't say something that ridiculous when the guests obviously know where their rooms are.

People say "let me walk you to the door" all the time. If that's not ridiculous (its actually good manners) , then neither is walking someone to their room for the night.

SixOfWands

Tue, Jul 23 2019, 4:43 pm

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

I couldn't say something that ridiculous when the guests obviously know where their rooms are.

Oh, of course you could.

Or you could say that its been lovely chatting with them, but you need to get to bed now. DH usually continues to learn in the dining room for a while, but they're welcome to use the sukkah room, or there are Shabbat lights in the guest rooms.

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