Spinoff- how many kids do u have

amother

Lilac

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:36 pm

simba wrote:

The question to whom exactly?

Hashem doesn’t give everyone who has zex a child. If he decided this couple should have one I’ll take it as a sign that they should.

The audacity of those having opinions of other people’s family size is sad.

May Hashem give us all what we need. May we never have to ask for help from others.

You say this, but you would also agree in certain circumstances families shouldn't have children. So I say when a family has 10 kids and they live in 2 bedrooms and they are wearing rags for clothes and can't pay tuition, that it is time to stop having babies. You say I have chutzpah to say this. But if I make the circumstances a little more dire, then you'd also have the same chutzpah. If I say the family has 13 children instead of 10, some of the children are disabled, the couple is going thru shalom bayis issues, then you'd probably boldly have the audacity to say they shouldn't have more kids. So the truth is we agree. There is a point when couples should stop having children. We just disagree where exactly that point is.

simba

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:49 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

You are changing from financial issues to disabled children Sholom Bayis issues etc.. nothing to do with this thread.

No. I will never have an opinion of how many children someone should have if it’s financial difficulties only.

The only 2 times in my life I can remember having an opinion of how many children someone had was;
1. A women who lost 4 babies to a genetic disorder.
2. A woman who was in a terrible marriage with a heroine addicted husband.

I know a family with 12 children that doesn’t have nearly enough money to cover their basic expenses , forget tuition. I would be so happy for them if they had more if that is what they wanted. Kids are happy and loved. Their emotional needs are attended to. They are trained to be resourceful at a young age. They have equal opportunities to be well adjusted and successful adults.
They may wear hand me downs and not eat meat regularly. That hasn’t killed anyone as of yet.

You tell me, do we agree?

simba

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:56 pm

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

Bh we are able to afford our children. I'm just wondering, if ch"v we loose our money do you think I should sell the kids?

I think so. If you can’t find a rich family that has enough in their savings to take them through an education that will ensure an income of 500k annually, you should freeze them for thawing at a better financial time in your life.

Make sure the sales contract has;

1. A buyback plan so you can get them if your wheel of fortune should turn.

2. A clause stating that the adoptive family must not purchase any other kids with the same financial statements.

3. Your children should be fed only organic meats. Homemade yogurts and homegrown produce is a must.

4. Should the buying parties wheel of fortune turn you become the beneficiary of their life insurance plan.

Running out.. I’ll finish drafting this up later.

amother

Cyan

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 9:30 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

There’s a hashkafa of “Hashem will provide” (apparently even if one is making decisions counter to reality) and there’s a hashkafa of looking around and seeing how the world actually works and making decisions based on that.

And never the twain shall meet.

No. There’s actually a huge path in between both approaches. It’s called doing my hishtadlus while recognizing and fully believing that it is NOT this hishtadlus which brings me my parnassah but Hashem’s ratzon. Full stop. That’s how I was raised to believe is the frum hashkafa and I honestly feel bad for the many posters on here who believe otherwise.

Sorry, OP, but most ppl I know think/plan alike, regardless of family size. I don’t know a single person who believes their financial reality will never improve. And I don’t know anyone who thinks money will fall from the sky either.

We do our best within normal parameters and then we put it in His hands.

It is not being irresponsible.

It is not being naive.

It is living a life where you truly believe that Gd runs the world.

honey36

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 9:31 pm

Just wanted to highlight a few points I thought were overlooked. As another poster said, I don't think all schools work In the way that other parents are forced to pay higher tuitions to cover those who can't. Where I live,(oot but fairly large community) I know one of the schools for example don't really have a real tuition rate because ppl either pay way more than it costs to educate their kids or way less. meaning the wealthy ppl in the community donate (I'm making up the numbers, but for example) 5 million a year to the school. this will cover the cost to educate their 5 kids in the school plus like 4.3 million extra or wtver. Then the ppl who are struggling just pay what they can. So what I mean to say is, yes there is a actual tuition rate, but the school knows most kids won't pay and that's fine because the community thinks it's an important to spend their tzedaka money on giving kids a Jewish education. That's it. No hard feelings. No complaining. When we asked about birth control bc of tuition, our rav explained to us that this is how it works in our city and we shouldn't be worried abt it. Ppl probably know this information before they have children, so yes they are planning not to pay full tuition, and no that is not irresponsible. And no the other parents and the school are not mad at them for this. That's what the tuition committee is for. This is basic tzedakah- it's a mitzvah. Ppl are happy to do it. Ppl who are making millions a year anyways have millions they need to give to maaser.

In terms of the schools that force parents to pay higher tuition to cover other ppl, I think that's crazy and obviously they need to reorganize their system in a way that there's no hard feelings. Some ideas: do more fundraising, Jewish education should be a number one tzedakah In the community up there with mikvahs and shuls. It should be a necessity and askanim and rabanim need to know if the school is struggling for funds and work out ways to deal with it. This is what they are here for.

Not that we have any rabanim to compare with today, but I remember when I read r. Moshe feinsteins biography and I was shocked at how much he was focused on raising money for "chinuch atzmai". It literally came up in almost every chapter. And I realized it's because that's what's most important. Having children and giving them a Jewish education. Now, I know there will never be another r. Moshe but if we can find a gadol who can just bring back to light this yesod, it may help solve the tuition crisis.

amother

Navy

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 9:35 pm

honey36 wrote:

I also live oot and its totally true. I actually know my tuition pays for other kids but I don't mind. I'm glad to be on the giving side. It helps my community is small and I actually know all the kids I'm helping support.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 9:42 pm

[quote="amother [ Mustard ]"]To the person who posted this thread originally,

I hightly suggest that you go see a mental health professional, because you seem to have an abnormal need to be in controll.

Forget about being in controll over your own situation, no one asked you about how many kids you are having and if you can afford them. That is your choice!!!

But why are you so busy with what other people are doing????

Do you feel inadequate because you are not capable of doing that?
Do you feel less then them because their level for bitochon in Hashem is so much greater?
Is there something else going on in your life that bothers you so much and you are therefore looking to blame your bad feelings on someone else?

FYI: I come from a big family..., More than 15 kids k'h...
I had a beautiful upbringing!!!!!!
Parents are b'h unbelievable.
When thinking about my youth I think I have much much better memories than most of my friends!
And yes, my father did always pay tuition on time and always mentioned that Hashem has his ways and just helped him always at the right time.

No, we were not wealthy...My friends might have had nice clothes, or more expensive stuff...
But we were clean, growing up in a very healthy environment, we did not feel any less then our friends.

Can I say that I will be as capable as my parents??? I don't know... I take it child by child... and if I feel that I need time I see that a lot of rabbonim are very lenient today and understand that we are not as strong as the previous generation.

But finances - that comes totally from Hashem...

I am young and I myself have seen enough times were you have wealthy people that become poor overnight...

Take it child by child, birth by birth and definitely don't think that you are in controll!!!!!!!

And you my dear friend, please try to do some introspection if you have that extreem need to controll others in other situations as well....

My advise, go talk to someone...

Life is a privilege!!!!

If a couple has a functioning household and feels capable of bringing another Yiddishe Neshomo into this world ----- ASHRECHO!!!!!!

Did you then forget who the third partner is????

You and your husband are partners, but Hashem is the main partner and guarantor that ultimately decided to bring this child or children into this world and he takes better care of his children than the wealthiest and nicest parents in the world!!!!!

Food for thought...[/quote)

Beautiful post!!

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 9:55 pm

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

Well, OP, I have 9 wonderful children. I can't afford tuition.

I am being irresponsible, right?

I know for a fact that the world would turn over to raise 2 million for me if one of my kids was sick, but because I need help with tuition, I should have turned down the opportunity of brightening the world with these delicious little people?

Who knows if YOUR next child wouldn't be the one to discover a cure for cancer, or to solve the tuition crisis?

I'm getting the feeling that you would prefer to eradicate "the poor" altogether. Because being a taker is selfish, entitled, and unnecessary. Well, aside for the fact that Hashem created the world with givers and takers.

When you have kids, you know that they will need food and tuition and other basic things. Most kids, thank G-d, do not need healthcare in the millions. If you know that you will not be able to give your kids the basic necessities, then you should not expect the community at large to take care of them for you. Ultimately, there are only a finite number of tzedaka dollars to go around. First dibs should be for those who find themselves in unexpected situations such someone losing a job, expensive medical care, etc... not because someone wants to have a large number of children knowing in advance they cannot afford them. Unless they are willing to send them to public school. As someone said already, if everyone had this attitude, there would be no yeshivas. Even wealthy people who donate would not be able to keep schools open just by themselves. Parents are responsible for the children they bring into the world.

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:01 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

To the person who posted this thread originally,

I hightly suggest that you go see a mental health professional, because you seem to have an abnormal need to be in controll.

Forget about being in controll over your own situation, no one asked you about how many kids you are having and if you can afford them. That is your choice!!!

But why are you so busy with what other people are doing????

Do you feel inadequate because you are not capable of doing that?
Do you feel less then them because their level for bitochon in Hashem is so much greater?
Is there something else going on in your life that bothers you so much and you are therefore looking to blame your bad feelings on someone else?

FYI: I come from a big family..., More than 15 kids k'h...
I had a beautiful upbringing!!!!!!
Parents are b'h unbelievable.
When thinking about my youth I think I have much much better memories than most of my friends!
And yes, my father did always pay tuition on time and always mentioned that Hashem has his ways and just helped him always at the right time.

No, we were not wealthy...My friends might have had nice clothes, or more expensive stuff...
But we were clean, growing up in a very healthy environment, we did not feel any less then our friends.

Can I say that I will be as capable as my parents??? I don't know... I take it child by child... and if I feel that I need time I see that a lot of rabbonim are very lenient today and understand that we are not as strong as the previous generation.

But finances - that comes totally from Hashem...

I am young and I myself have seen enough times were you have wealthy people that become poor overnight...

Take it child by child, birth by birth and definitely don't think that you are in controll!!!!!!!

And you my dear friend, please try to do some introspection if you have that extreem need to controll others in other situations as well....

My advise, go talk to someone...

Life is a privilege!!!!

If a couple has a functioning household and feels capable of bringing another Yiddishe Neshomo into this world ----- ASHRECHO!!!!!!

Did you then forget who the third partner is????

You and your husband are partners, but Hashem is the main partner and guarantor that ultimately decided to bring this child or children into this world and he takes better care of his children than the wealthiest and nicest parents in the world!!!!!

Food for thought...

I think that this post is extremely rude to the OP, and says nothing of value. Your father did manage to pay his tuition. (Maybe because tuition has skyrocketed in recent years. It didn't used to be so outlandishly high.) No one has the need to control others who are able to support themselves. I wasn't asked when family X decided to have kid #10 when they cant even afford 3.

mo5

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:04 pm

Since the biggest obstacle is tuition and taking tuition subsidies, let’s talk education and the perspectives on it.
Many of us see it as a communal responsibility to provide Jewish education (similar to basic education now considered a state Ie communal responsibility and therefore we have public schools) to Jewish kids.
In the early years of Jewish day schools in the USA, there was a tremendous amount of fundraising done (in addition to any tuition charges) to encourage everyone to send their kids to Jewish schools, including those parents who didn’t actually care too much to do so. Also the post-war community wasn’t yet as established and doing as well financially yet.
Fundraising is still done but at diminishing levels relatively.
I also see providing Jewish education to all Jewish kids as an investment in those children, that they should grow up to be proud knowledgeable Jewish adults and contribute thereby to the Jewish community and not be lost.

With the attitude of OP, no one should go into chinuch or similar lower-paying careers, but then we would be missing some of the most important assets- good teachers and community workers.

I wish the OP much Hatzlocha and may everything in your life always go the way you assume it will go.

southernbubby

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:19 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

BH, I am not seeing children who are homeless, starving, or forced to attend public school. I also don't see anyone forced to support someone else. I also don't see finite tzedukah dollars because there are plenty of wealthy frum people, keneinahora.
As we well know, if the family is overwhelmed and not coping then that's a valid reason to delay or curtail further pregnancies but there are school principals who inform parents that they are not allowed to stop having children because they can't afford tuition.

amother

Amber

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 1:23 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Which neshamas are supposed to not come down for financial reasons?

Well since people seem to believe hashem will make miracles happen and increase everyone's income with each child they give birth to, why can't you believe hashem will surely find a way to bring a neshama down to earth if he wants to??
So emunah basically works only the way we want it to? If I want more kids but can't afford them I'll have emunah but if I don't want them because we're only struggling I forget about hashems ability to perform miracles? Hmm

amother

Amber

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 1:32 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

We can go into that on another thread but please don’t compare holy neshamos that serve Hashem to kids who statistically end up on the streets doing drugs.

Very funny!!!
What about kids who go otd because they were raised by a stressed out mom who couldn't possibly take care of her 8+ kids, they never got what they wanted because the family was poor, they resented their bad education and didn't want to have anything to do with religion?
As if all frum people are good and holy people. As if all nonjewish people are bad and unworthy of respect. Your answer disgusts me.

And to the poster who wrote : what about those precious neshamos who find a cure to cancer... What's the percentage of frum kids going into high level education so they could possibly find a cure for cancer??
The people finding cures for cancer and various other deseases are non frum Jews or nonjews.