Spinoff- how many kids do u have

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:14 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

OP, your question doesn't sound very much like in the torah ways. A person can have a great plan, lots of money, and a great job which all can be gone from one minute to the next. Yes, it's important to have a plan but don't have less kids then you want to because of this. No one knows what the future has in store for them.

True. At the same time, should you have 8 kids if you know your family's maximum earning capacity is going to be $65K per year? That seems like you're not doing normal hishtadlus and relying on a neis and/or setting up your life to rely on the community.

amother

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:23 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

OP- I have a question for u, my mom had 11 kids. Is that too many? My fathers parents always paid a the grandkids tuition...

no. thats my point, I dont have an issue with large families but I have an issue with people saying hashem will provide etc etc and then crying on here that they have no money, their kids are being sent home, they r on verge of collapse etc etc. kind of self inflicted in mh opinion. to all those saying I lack emunah, where do u see in the torah to just have as many kids as you want and hashem is paying your bills? and secondly, if this was true we would see no posts about people with multiple kids who cannot pay tuition because the numbers are not even remotely adding up. we live in a world of nature not miracles. no it doesnt work that the baby comes out and you get a salary increase every time.

amother

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:29 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

OP- I have a question for u, my mom had 11 kids. Is that too many? My fathers parents always paid a the grandkids tuition...

a wealthy grandparent who is a benefactor is a plan. im not talking about that, talking about people with no real career with growth who just have a baby every 2 years and then get upset at society or complain about parnassah.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:29 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Amother aquamarine, How can one know what their maximum yearly earnings will be for years to come??? That's just impossible to know. Why would someone resort to that their salary won't ever go up? (Or down for that matter.)

I'm talking about families where the wife is a teacher and the husband is a rebbi. Or the wife is a part-time secretary and the husband learns and maybe tutors a couple of hours a day, and they have no plans to change that.

Or you're just in very low-paying professions and have no way to change that.

Some people's maximum earning capacity is pretty fixed.

ectomorph

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:33 am

So OP, should poor people be sterilized after they've had the number of kids you approve of??

Should kids only be a luxury for the rich, like in the secular world?

Maybe poor parents have lots of warmth and energy or other attributes of good parents.

And that's what a community is for. To work as a team. Not everyone gets intelligence. Health. Money. Kids. Energy. Organizational skills. Beauty. We work together.

amother

Peach

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:34 am

Op, when you find the crystal ball can you let me know!
There's no way to know long term what your financial situation will be, even if you are doing well at the point of choosing to have another child. Even the most well off people hit rough spots at times.
And there is no way to predict which child will be an easy one and which will come with challenges and will need tutoring or therapy that can easily add up to double tuition or more. Or have special needs and needs services that aren't covered by insurance.
There are very few people I know who don't have a child who needs a lot of extra in some way or another. And often it doesn't show up until they are older.
As far as I understand, we make decisions with the facts we have now and trust that hashem is our Father and our children's father too. We do our part and the results are in his hands either way. For finances, our children's needs and how we can meet them!!

amother

Apricot

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:34 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

So basically what you are saying is - its okay to have lots of children - so long as you don't complain or get upset.

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:35 am

And you’re a judge of what’s normal??
Normal to me is taking Hashem’s blessings as they come (barring any health/emotional issues).
The not frum think that 2 kids is normal & they cannot afford more.
Don’t judge people based on your hashkafos.
We did not know how we would pay tuition when our oldest was born never mind for a large family.
BH we were financially successful & paid full tuition until the economy took a nosedive & for a few years we could not . Should we have given some kids back at that point???
If I had to choose between having more kids or school then I would homeschool!!!
Parnossa is from shomayim there are never any guarantees.
If you want your definition of normal no one is judging your choice but please don’t shove your views down others throats.

turca

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:39 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

They simply leave everything up to Hashem

mig100

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:40 am

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

So basically what you are saying is - its okay to have lots of children - so long as you don't complain or get upset.

As strongly and vehemently I disagree with op- I actually do some extent agree with the quoted text.

Good line. I like it

Yea of course it's normal to complain to some extent...

amother

Amber

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:41 am

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

And here's the dichotomy.

The same schools- and Rabbonim in these communities-that are sending kids home, are also promoting the following education:

Birth control is only for dire emergencies
It's a mitzva to have as many children as possible
Finances aren't a reason to limit family size
Hashem will provide more money for each child
If you have bitachon, you shouldn't worry about money
If you limit your family size, you are lazy, selfish, or lacking in bitachon

Oh, and pay your tuition bill, or else

And I'm pretty sure that the rabbonim who say that finances have nothing to do with bc rely on tzedaka themselves. If other people are paying WHY not take the money? It's always easier to rely on others than being responsible.

ectomorph

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:42 am

Hashem didn't give the mitzva of pru urvu conditional on having money or food.

Rather, read in Shema. Hashem sends Bracha when we listen to him (and serve Him by doing Mitzvos) and Klala when we don't.

That is how finances are distributed. Directly from Hashem.

Not from your financial planning.

If you are doing well, thank Hashem and hope that you are never on the other side taking. Don't begrudge the poor people.

Every Jewish child is precious. Soon enough we will have bigger issues than tuition. We are in galus. While we are in the golden age of America, we should do as many mitzvos as possible.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:44 am

ectomorph wrote:

Please answer the question of אין סומכין על הנס, which was brought up in the previous thread.

Since Hashem created this world as a world of teva, we need to do enough hishtadlus to make things appear to be al pi derech hateva in order to get the shefa bracha that Hashem plans for us. If you're not doing enough hishtadlus, that faucet won't be turned on.

amother

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:44 am

I have nothing against big families! I have something against the (misguided) hashkafah of leaving everything to hashem. who said that its a mitzvah to do that? being responsible and preparing yourself for a career path in which there is somewhat of a plan to provide the basic needs for however many children you would like to have is called hishtadlus. relying on miracles from hashem, that a man who is in a dead end job and wife has no college degree and is a sahm, who is a seamstress for 1 hour a week, yet they can just go ahead and have a baby every 2 years and worry about tuition, camp, braces etc etc and the other 100 bills that come with a large family is reckless. as you can see life standards are
tremendously high nowadays, one cannot be irresponsible. not tht everything has to line up but there needs to be a plan of sorts before just expanding your family and your bills over and over again and relying on nissim.

amother

White

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:47 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I am just curious based in tuition threads, are people having children irresponsibly with no way to pay tuitions? Or are most people responsible and take their finances into account. I can't understand how someone who makes say 90k a year thinks its ok to just have 7-8 kids and then gets frustrated that the schools cant educate them for free. whats wrong with having 4 kids that you can afford? it just seems very irresponsible to me.

I disagree with what seems to be your underlying premise: that people should only have as many kids as they can pay full tuition for.

I think it's irresponsible to have more kids than parents can physically and emotionally care for, which will vary based on parents' ability and individual children's needs.

I also think it's irresponsible if someone doesn't try really hard to do their best to pay tuition. That means training for a profession and working hard in it, within reason.

But if people are doing their best to pay the tuition (working hard, living moderately), and they have the physical and emotional stamina to tend to their kids, I don't see tuition as a reason not to have more.

Jewish children are an asset to the entire community, not just a private indulgence like a cat or dog. If my neighbor has great middos, works hard, and is raising six or eight Jewish children in a happy well functioning home, that benefits me too and I am happy to subsidize it. Either as a taxpayer indirectly or with my leftover money that I have after paying full tuition for 3 children.

amother

Amber

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:48 am

People will always make irresponsible decisions knowing others will pick up the slack.
As long as there's enough tzedaka going around those taking it won't make an effort to improve their situation themselves.
Asking others to pay their bills and then say they rely on hashem.

amother

Smokey

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:52 am

So if someone is on a very limited salary, should they just have 1 kid? Or none? Did our great grandparents and beyond avoid having kids because of money? Many of them struggled to put food on the table.
Poor people can't be parents? You chose 4 kids as average because in the SECULAR world 4 is still considered "normal" size. And secular ideals are infiltrating our society. Comfort above purpose. That's an American ideal. Not a Jewish one.

If someone with low income is having infertility issues and needs to shell out thousands for treatments, they shouldn't cuz they can't afford it?!? NO! They absolutely go into debt for it becuase THERE ARE SOME THINGS IN LIFE THAT ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY!

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 10:53 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Chill no one is saying you should have a large family ok?
Do you expect someone with a few kids eeking out a living to give up their humble parnossa & go to college & accumulate more debt?
You’re being unrealistic & for some reason very strident.
You want 4 kids ? No sweat off my back.
Just leave the ones who choose to leave family planning to Hashem alone.