Spinoff- how many kids do u have

amother

Pearl

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 7:54 am

I have 2 thoughts

First. We were once very tight financially after our 3rd child was born. I was have anxiety attacks (not clinically proven, but I was very anxious) with each bill that came in. I was very stressed. I had been on birth control after my son's birth for one year per a rav/doctor's recommendation. We wanted an extension. I spoke to the rav and he said for finances he can't allow us to continue on birth control. I emphasized that I was very anxious and he allowed only 6 more months

Second. I don't know if this is a joke or real story....There was a kollel couple that decided they could live on her salary up to 3 kids. A year later they had triplets. So what if someone does plan to only have 4-5 kids and have triplets. Are they irresponsible? Maybe they should plan 1-2 less incase they have a surprise of multiples?

If you can't afford tuition, in addition to breaks, maybe they can tutor or find other ways to supplement their income. But sometimes that just isn't possible and you just have to try your best and trust in Hashem.

simba

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 7:54 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I have nothing against big families! I have something against the (misguided) hashkafah of leaving everything to hashem. who said that its a mitzvah to do that? being responsible and preparing yourself for a career path in which there is somewhat of a plan to provide the basic needs for however many children you would like to have is called hishtadlus. relying on miracles from hashem, that a man who is in a dead end job and wife has no college degree and is a sahm, who is a seamstress for 1 hour a week, yet they can just go ahead and have a baby every 2 years and worry about tuition, camp, braces etc etc and the other 100 bills that come with a large family is reckless. as you can see life standards are
tremendously high nowadays, one cannot be irresponsible. not tht everything has to line up but there needs to be a plan of sorts before just expanding your family and your bills over and over again and relying on nissim.

Neither me or literally any of my siblings would be born with this mindset. We had happy and healthy parents who loved us and cared for us tremendously. My father always was a Rebbi and my mom a pre-school teacher. When we were all older they’re income became more.

Today we are a large family of married adults with our own children. The biggest gift my parents gave us was each other.

My parents were tremendously helped by the community I was raised in.
They had children and Hashem literally made miracles to ensure we all had what we needed. Yes, camp, braces and new clothes for Yom Tov.
I highly regard my parents for the self-sacrifice they had in making this beautiful family a reality.

This is Torah. Your modern view of each man for themselves and not relying on Hashem is simply the opposite.

amother

Orange

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 7:58 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

a wealthy grandparent who is a benefactor is a plan. im not talking about that, talking about people with no real career with growth who just have a baby every 2 years and then get upset at society or complain about parnassah.

And if my grandfather lost his money? Suddenly its irresponsible? Sorry we have to live with emunah. My mom is an incredibly strong woman who was able to be there for 11 children thru thick and thin. Im so grateful to be her child and im grateful for all the siblings she gave me. Im SURE she will get a lot of olam haba for the years of blood sweat and tears she put into us. Now come throw tomatoes...

GreenEyes26

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:08 am

The communities where having very large families and “leaving it up to Hashem” is preached are also the communities with low education and earning potential.

No, it doesn’t make sense. But it would take generations to unpack the layers of twisted hashkafa that makes this seem normal.

Suffice to say, there’s nothing you can do about it, so just make the best decisions for yourself. Don’t have a lot of kids you can’t afford and make the best rational financial decisions for your family.

amother

Blonde

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:11 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

that is such garbage. no one should be in a position where their kids are being sent home. and sorry but if you have no degree or stable job and tuition is minimum 8k where I live, you are going to have an emotional breakdown if sorts when your kids are sent home. dont blme other people- think before u get pregnant! can we afford this child and is there a plan of sorts. and if you cant afford tuitions how will u afford bar mitzvahs, camps and weddings etc.

I'm the op of the thread where kids were sent home.
Can't resist responding to u.

Do u realize that life has surprises? That hashem runs the world? That ur hashkafa is totally secular?
In my case, we both had excellent jobs, we were settled nicely and were ready to have whatever amount of kids. Life moved on, I cldnt handle pregnancy and job and my husband was earning enough so I took a break. Suddenly my husbands boss got sick, and passed away. There went the business. Took few years to recover and settle again. Now something else came up where were falling behind big time! How can u talk abt prwgncy and family size, when the future is unknown!????

amother

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:19 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

this thread is not about you.
I am not talking about you. you seem to have fallen on hard times and a bad situation, (if you arent managing because of your husbands business you may want to question why you would choose to get pregnant? I know I would have worked at least prt time until things were more stable) I am not trying to cause you pain but there should be less of a victim mentality and more of a proactive response. of course I dont think everyones life should be planned out perfectly and you need to be wealthy to have kids or even pay full tuitionbut if one is drowning financially to the point where they cant work any pyments out with the school then shouldnt one not create a situation that is only going to get worse? until things stabilize? sorry u r gng thru wat u r.

amother

Lawngreen

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:20 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

We stopped at 2 and sent to public school. I would have LOVED to have more. Being responsible sucks.

I also send to public and try as much as I can to teach kodesh at home.

Work full time, but can't afford tuition unfortunately.

People are often surprised when they ask about school and I say public.

Kiwi13

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:26 am

Proper resources to care for a child isn’t only about finances, and honestly, finances are never guaranteed to anyone. Exclusively money-based family planning is also somewhat irresponsible. I do believe that there are limits, but each family must do what’s best for them. Resources like time and energy and parental involvement and love are much more important and a lot more in our control. Of course, dire finances can drain the family in ways beyond just money. There are no blanket solutions that work for everyone.

To answer your question, OP - when my husband and I got married, we both wanted to have as many children as we could properly care for, obviously dependent on Hashem’s plans. We currently have 3 children. Even though part of our family planning was decided by circumstance beyond our control (medical issues with future pregnancies), I am perfectly content with my family size and would probably stick with my 3 anyway, at least for a long while. Our litmus test for when to try for another baby was always waiting until we wanted the next one as much as we wanted our first. That’s when I knew I was ready to take on the responsibility of another child. We are not in the best position, financially, and we will probably always need tuition scholarships (although who knows?) but we do our best to live within our means and we have a happy home.

I’m sure other people would react differently to our circumstances than we did, but these are really such individual questions. Ideally, all couples would have guidance they trust when they need direction, and reach decisions that work best for their individual families.

Kiwi13

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:31 am

OP, just to put this out there... let’s say a couple doesn’t have a good financial setup. Let’s say they will always struggle with money, maybe because of previously acquired overwhelming debt or some other circumstance beyond their control... should they not have ANY children? Should their family line die out with them because they had money problems?

Is their second child any less deserving of life than their first? Where do you draw the line?

amother

Lilac

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:33 am

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

Op, when you find the crystal ball can you let me know!
There's no way to know long term what your financial situation will be, even if you are doing well at the point of choosing to have another child. Even the most well off people hit rough spots at times.
And there is no way to predict which child will be an easy one and which will come with challenges and will need tutoring or therapy that can easily add up to double tuition or more. Or have special needs and needs services that aren't covered by insurance.
There are very few people I know who don't have a child who needs a lot of extra in some way or another. And often it doesn't show up until they are older.
As far as I understand, we make decisions with the facts we have now and trust that hashem is our Father and our children's father too. We do our part and the results are in his hands either way. For finances, our children's needs and how we can meet them!!

Just because there's no way to know forsure how a persons finances will turn out doesn't mean that it's not irresponsible for two 20 year olds with very little education to get married, and plan to have 10+ kids.

amother

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:33 am

Kiwi13 wrote:

of course not! but they should not have 7 kids in my opinion, we can agree to disagree. they need to contribute something to tuition and not rely on the community to support them

SuperWify

Tue, Aug 06 2019, 8:33 am

OP if a family is about to be evicted, both parents works full time and still are 1000s of dollars in debt then yes having a baby right then is irresponsible. If one parent is sick or incapable, having a child is irresponsible. But otherwise it’s really not our business.

I know it’s hard not judge (I see stressed out overworked moms snapping at their many children and I wonder if a bigger family with more stress and bills to pay is truly worth a extremely stressed and anxious set of parents) but it’s really not our place.

Also let’s remember that bc fails with a frum persons limited options are more common then we think. Hashem has a great sense of humor.