English Names | Imamother

nchr

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 12:32 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Please provide a source for the bolded. I've only encountered that view, that Yiddish names are not "legitimate" Jewish names for use in a shul setting, among Reform Jews.

Where did I say they are not legitimate names? Any name a person is called is a legitimate name according to halacha - be that Lashon HaKodesh, Yiddish, English, French or whatever.

I said that men had secular names and religious names where many women in europe did not have a religious name. Do you know any men with solely Yiddish names? But how many women do? This is what I had been told. There happens to be a woman in Satmar whose only name is Irene (pronounced in Hungarian). Her family was from Romania and chassidish before the war - she had to create a name for herself after the war because while pre war it was acceptable for girls to have entirely secular names. It wasn't post war, although Lana, Aigy, etc. Probably are.

Anyways, my cousin's chassidish dayan recommends not using Yiddish names for girls except for specific ones, and since I dont hold this way, I never looked into it.

pesek zman

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 12:44 am

For me, worse than having only a Hebrew Name is having a misspelled/mispronounces/Yiddish-iced version of a Hebrew name as your only name.

Yides is the best example of this. In the hospital, this rhymes with tides. No reason for that. Spell is Yehudis and people can actually pronounce it.

That aside, my European husband felt very strongly about giving our girl a very secular name. We all know the holocaust can happen again and he wanted to make sure she’d be able to ‘pass’ and get out if when ever needed. (her last name is quite secular) I wanted a secular name because I don’t want her getting rejected for a job before they even interview her. I want her to have every opportunity in schooling and her career.

cbsp

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:08 am

So I was given an English name (two actually) but not legally. My Jewish and legal names are identical.

I would have only given my children the same Jewish and legal names except DS was born in Philadelphia (CHOP) and we needed to get a name on his birth certificate within 24 hours. (it didn't quite happen but that's a different story).

The Rov paskened that we couldn't put his intended name as his legal name but we could use something similar. So we used the nickname version for his birth certificate.

He knows that the doctors all call him by this nickname and we don't cuz it's not his Jewish name - but now some of his classmates started calling him by the nickname (and the doctors started calling him his Jewish name because I added it to his portal 🙃)

My other DS is Dovid on his birth certificate - but some very "helpful" clerks decided it's David and that's what his insurance card says.

So far no issues with DD although her names are unusual...

DH has an unusual first Jewish name and his mother couldn't imagine that he'd actually use it so she only put down the first name as an initial and his middle name as the full name. He's tried to change it legally so many times because surprise! He did end up going by the first name and that's what's on all his documents.

Finally my sister has a secular name that's different than her Jewish name - but was only given a middle initial, not a full middle name.

Last edited by cbsp on Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Salmon

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 6:06 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

No, Miriam is Miriam. Mary (Yoshke's mother) was Miriam, but that doesn't mean that the name Miriam translates to Mary. Miriam (Moshe's sister) is still Miriam. Mary is a Christian name, and while there are Jewish Mary's, there SHOULDN'T BE!!
Miriam is a perfectly good secular name. When I was in the hospital I had two nurses Miriam. Neither one of them was Jewish.
Please don't name your Jewish child a Christian name!!
Sorry... this just really irks me.

Hey, I agree with you. Like I said, I have relatives named Mary--Hebrew name Miriam--so I wouldn't use Mary anyway, but either way my kids only have Hebrew names. I'm just explaining why some people do use the names, because they see them as a legitimate English translation.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 6:34 am

BTs and gerim face this issue all the time. I'm a BT with a very non Jewish first name, which I hate. The only reason I haven't changed it, is filing fees and tons of paperwork. I hate paperwork more than I hate my legal name.

In the US, if I used my Hebrew name, people would look at me and go "What???" Confused

On my first trip to Israel, I used my legal name, and everywhere I went people asked me "Why aren't you using your Hebrew name?" Perfect strangers were very concerned about my Hebrew name. Not using it seemed like a personal insult to the land!

Last year I ended up in the emergency room because I had a major seizure. I was only half conscious, and the doctor kept calling me the name on my ID card (legal name). I had no idea who that was, so I didn't answer him! When he was told my Hebrew name, I was able to answer to that. I couldn't recognize my legal name at all, because I haven't used it in ages.

singleagain

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 6:55 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Actually... If you look at the history of Mary. It comes from the Latin name Maria. Maria come from the Greek Mariam or Maria which is from the New Testament. And both of those New Testament names are from the original Hebrew, Miriam.

So.. using Mary for Miriam actually makes sense linguistically.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 8:29 am

Thank you Ruchel and singleagain for being the voice of reason. Actually, the more I think about it the more ridiculous I think it is that anyone thinks there "shouldn't be" people with any names. I know very frum people named James, Mark, Andrew, Marie (which is just French for Mary). Like I said, I don't give English names anyway, but if I did, what's wrong with any of the above?

urban gypsy

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 9:28 am

I grew up in a secular Jewish community and we all went by our English names but used our Hebrew names in shul/ Hebrew school which were either radically different (I remember a Simon who was also Menashe LOL) or shared a first letter (for example Stephanie who was Simcha)

The name I go by is a short form nickname of my Hebrew name, which is also a standalone name in modern Hebrew. It's extremely short and simple (three letters LOL) yet still causes so much confusion. I always introduce myself with my name immediately followed by the spelling because it's so tiring to explain.

My kids all have Jewish names which work perfectly well in both English and Hebrew which I love so much. It's so simple and sane and easy. They never have to explain or spell and they can just use one normal name, I'm so happy with the names we used.

My oldest daughter was named after my grandmother who had a Yiddish name. It's a standalone name with no middle name so sometimes people harass me/her over it saying it's not a Jewish name. I literally don't care because my grandmother was extremely frum, everyone in her family had only Jewish names, that was her name so that's Jewish enough for me.

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 9:58 am

pesek zman wrote:

Or spell it Yidis. Or Yiddis (The yud saf at the end of the word make is, not es) OR Judith. If you're spelling it differently from how your kid is being called and how you pronounce it, why not go all the way and make it be recognizable and pronounceable by all?

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:04 am

singleagain wrote:

You're actually proving my point that Mary is a Christian name. I know that it comes from Miriam, but it was originally translated to Mary by the Christians (New Testament)
It's not like Rachel, or Benjamin, or Jacob which are legitimate English names for Biblical names, it's a Christian name. So that's why I don't understand why people would name their kids that. Or Paul, or Peter, or John. And I've actually come across chassidish men with a name like Paul, and I'm like "WHAT WAS THAT MOTHER THINKING??!!"

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:11 am

urban gypsy wrote:

Yonathan is Jonathan. In any case, it's NOT Yochanan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yohanan

And this proves that John isn't a simple translation of Yochanan, but a Christian name.

To the poster who said that everyone can give whatever names they want, you're right, they can. And that's why they do. I can't change whatever names people decide to give their kids. But I have every right to my opinion that giving your child a Christian name is wrong. Christian is not secular. It's like naming your child Mohammed (an Islamic name - and extremely popular in the US and Europe... would you consider it?)
My opinion stands. Jewish children can have English names, but it shouldn't be from another religion.

singleagain

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:18 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Actually, j was trying to point out. That Mary is directly from Miriam.

John/Johnathan is directly from Yonatan

It's no different than Jacob for yakov

cbsp

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:22 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Isn't there a Peter in the gemara?
I remember it from this story about the Rambam:

http://onthemainline.blogspot......l?m=1

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:25 am

singleagain wrote:

Actually, j was trying to point out. That Mary is directly from Miriam.

John/Johnathan is directly from Yonatan

It's no different than Jacob for yakov

No, Mary comes from Miriam, but who was the first Miriam? And who was the first Mary?
Jacob is just a translation for Yaakov. Miriam is the translation for Miriam.
When people (not Jewish) are naming their child for Miriam the sister of Moshe, they name their child Miriam. When they are naming their child Mary for the mother of Yoshke they use Mary. It's like saying Ettel is a translation of Esther. It might originate from there, but it's not a translation.
Look at the Artscroll chumash...