English Names | Imamother

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:27 am

cbsp wrote:

Isn't there a Peter in the gemara?
I remember it from this story about the Rambam:

http://onthemainline.blogspot......l?m=1

What this story from the Rambam shows is that Rabbi Meir automatically assumed that Peter was a non Jew because of his name.

singleagain

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:31 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

No, Mary comes from Miriam, but who was the first Miriam? And who was the first Mary?
Jacob is just a translation for Yaakov. Miriam is the translation for Miriam.
When people (not Jewish) are naming their child for Miriam the sister of Moshe, they name their child Miriam. When they are naming their child Mary for the mother of Yoshke they use Mary. It's like saying Ettel is a translation of Esther. It might originate from there, but it's not a translation.
Look at the Artscroll chumash...

I never said intent didn't matter.

I was just pointing out why there might be ppl with both the name Miriam and Mary. They are directly the same name. Years ago, someone probably decided to use them but, bc Miriam wasn't good for secular society or whatever reason and then bc of Jewish traditions, it stuck.

urban gypsy

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:32 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

And this proves that John isn't a simple translation of Yochanan, but a Christian name.

To the poster who said that everyone can give whatever names they want, you're right, they can. And that's why they do. I can't change whatever names people decide to give their kids. But I have every right to my opinion that giving your child a Christian name is wrong. Christian is not secular. It's like naming your child Mohammed (an Islamic name - and extremely popular in the US and Europe... would you consider it?)
My opinion stands. Jewish children can have English names, but it shouldn't be from another religion.

Rose I agree with you 1000000% !!!!
I was only trying to say that John is closer to Yonathan than Yochanan, that's all
Maybe Jon is better than John because it's more obviously a nickname from Jonathan? IDK
But I do completely agree that we should try to avoid any names associated with other religions. I feel like that was a lot more common in older generations and I have always found it bizarre and vaguely offensive

cbsp

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:32 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

What this story from the Rambam shows is that Rabbi Meir automatically assumed that Peter was a non Jew because of his name.

Absolutely.

Was going to add that the imamothers here are in good company insisting that the name isn't Jewish - but that doesn't mean they are fully correct...

singleagain

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:37 am

urban gypsy wrote:

Johnathan is a direct translation of Yonatan

Like Jacob and Yakov

urban gypsy

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:45 am

singleagain wrote:

Johnathan is a direct translation of Yonatan

Like Jacob and Yakov

I get that. The question is whether John is a distinct Christian name on it's own, or a derivative of a Jewish sourced name. I was responding to someone upthread who mistakenly thought it is related to Yochanan.

Like Alex and Alexander are actually two completely different names in Russian traditions.

singleagain

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:48 am

urban gypsy wrote:

I guess I don't see much difference between Jonathan and Jacob.

Then again, I have an uncle John and a brother with the name Johnathan... Maybe I'm not impartial

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:51 am

urban gypsy wrote:

According to Wikipedia, it is sourced in Yochanan. Like Johanan, Johann, John.
I didn't say that any of these names aren't sourced in Jewish names. Many are. Heck, Christianity is sourced in Judaism!
But they are not translations of Jewish names, they are Christian names that are sourced in Jewish names.
That is a very big difference.

urban gypsy

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:51 am

singleagain wrote:

I guess I don't see much difference between Jonathan and Jacob.

Then again, I have an uncle John and a brother with the name Johnathan... Maybe I'm not impartial

Jonathan and Jacob are both 100% Jewish
John was an apostle so I think that's why people feel it's an issue
But then again so was Simon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ostle

I'd like to formally apologize to Salmon who is clearly much smarter than me.... John the Apostle's Hebrew name was Yochanan so she is right and I am wrong, there is a connection between the names

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:52 am

singleagain wrote:

I guess I don't see much difference between Jonathan and Jacob.

Then again, I have an uncle John and a brother with the name Johnathan... Maybe I'm not impartial

No difference whatsoever between Jonathan and Jacob. Both are translations of Hebrew names.
VERY BIG difference if you're talking about John which is a Christian name.

urban gypsy

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:53 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

I hear you. It's an important distinction, and I agree translation is much less problematic.
I do agree that Mary is a very Christian name, even though it's sourced from Miriam.

nchr

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:54 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Not exactly. Christian's did not create the name - it just so happened to be that their saints, gospels, etc. were so named. I've never met a Jew named John, but it seems more neutral than Luke. There are many Jews named Mary or Maryanne or Maria/Marie in Europe. There are many non Jews named Miriam.

urban gypsy

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:55 am

nchr wrote:

This is fun, let's debate Susan / Shoshanna

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:58 am

nchr wrote:

We Jews didn't create the names Avraham Yitzchak and Yaakov, it just so happens that our Avos were named those names, and they stuck! So now they are Hebrew/Jewish names. And there are many Christians and non Jews named Abraham Isaac and Jacob, but it doesn't take away from the fact that these names are Jewish Biblical names.

Use argument above to prove Mary as a Christian name.

ETA: I put Luke in the same category as Peter, Paul and John.
But unlike what a poster above said, not Simon. Because the first Simon was Shimon from the shevatim. If there was a Christian Simon later, it doesn't make it be a Christian name, it's a Christian with a Jewish Biblical name.

urban gypsy

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 10:59 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

By your logic, you can use any name. What makes something a Jewish name?
If enough Jews named their kid Yeshu could we use that too? Theoretically?
I say if a name is canonically Christian (one of the main religious figures) don't use it

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 11:02 am

urban gypsy wrote:

By your logic, you can use any name. What makes something a Jewish name?
If enough Jews named their kid Yeshu could we use that too? Theoretically?

No, by my logic, the first Je-sus was the founder of Christianity. If his name would have been Reuben or Simon, would we have stopped using the name? No. But it's a new Christian name and therefore not Jewish.
Ibrahim is Arabic pronunciation of Abraham, but Mohammed is a Muslim name. See the diff?

urban gypsy

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 11:03 am

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

Yes and no. Yeshu is Yehoshua is it not?
What did his mom call him when he was a little boy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshu

nchr

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 11:05 am

urban gypsy wrote:

Halachically your name is what you are called. If you're called Yeshu, that is your name. Jews made up names for years (How did Shmuel get his name? etc.) A Jewish name is any name that a Jewish person is called. If you are talking about names with mesorah or opinions on if objects/emotions can be names then that is where you approach a rav/rebbe. If you're talking about Lashon HaKodesh names, then there could be an argument that many Yiddish names are just as secular as french names, etc.
Our minhag is only to name after relatives though so we follow that.

urban gypsy

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 11:08 am

nchr wrote:

Halachically your name is what you are called.

You make a good point. English names and nicknames of spouses and their parents are written into a Get for this reason.

amother

Rose

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 11:13 am

urban gypsy wrote:

Yes and no. Yeshu is Yehoshua is it not?
What did his mom call him when he was a little boy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshu

Very interesting.
So Je-sus originates from Joshua. Who woulda thunk? (Still, if you name your child Yehoshua, give him the English name translation - Joshua and not Je-sus which is a derivative.)

I guess it's all more complicated than I thought.