Thoughts on this? | Imamother

#BestBubby

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 11:37 am

southernbubby wrote:

Where in a vaccine insert does it say that it causes autism?
It looks to me like genetic pre-disposition is a big factor.
Autism was first described in medical literature I'm 1912 when most people only got vaccines for smallpox. It obviously pre-dates the current vaccine schedule.
Are there anti-vaxers today that consider smallpox a minor illness for which big pharma decided to capitalize by turning it into a dread disease?

Here is quote from Tdap Vaccine Insert. https://www.rxlist.com/tripedi.....fects

"Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia (diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis vaccine) vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting. Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia (diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis vaccine) vaccine.2"

Other vaccines don't say autism but do say encephalopathy - which is brain inflammation/swelling which can lead to autism.

Vaccine Court won't compensate autistic children if parents say that vaccine caused autism.
But Vaccine Court DOES compensate autistic children if parents say that vaccines caused
encephalopathy (which caused autism).

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 11:47 am

So it goes on to state that the cause is uncertain of those disorders and that no proof has been established as to a relationship between the disease and the vaccine. We also know that autism has occurred in non-vaccinated children so even if vaccines are sometimes the culprit, there appears to be others as well. That makes it hard to blame the vaccine for a disorder that has a multitude of possible causes.

amother

Coral

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 12:06 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Exactly!!! It is manipulative tactics such as this or posting that halacha prohibits vaccinating that makes many of us disregard whatever else that they have to say.
I also was turned off by the behavior of the anti-vaxers that I knew personally because they were so against the medical establishment that they formed their own which consisted of selling multi level marketed products that they claimed cured everything or they trusted homeopathy for everything and the few times I tried it, it failed miserably. If I have to choose between crooks or kooks, the crooks (medical establishment) wins.
Yes I realize that not all anti-vaxers are like the ones that I know or use Hillel Handler as their Rav. Possibly some of them actually stayed home from the rally at the Atrium and some even capitulated and gave the MMR in order not to be viewed as a bad neighbor. I also acknowledge that some have the policy to vaccinate if an actual outbreak occurs which, although risky, is better than staunch refusal.

That's me. I didn't listen to the Akeres Habayis hotline, wasn't at the Atrium, didn't know who Handler is until I heard about the event there and once I heard him speak, I was turned off. I was also able to refute PEACH on many of their studies and statements (and I can do the same to PIE). I gave the MMR back in November.

Yay. What does all of this help me, if I'm labeled as an anti-vax kook? Nobody's listening to anybody anyway.

#BestBubby

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 1:17 pm

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

Yes, all of those have been reported following vaccination. They have also been reported before vaccination, and in unvaccinated children. Nowhere does it say they were caused by the vaccine. Since there is no way to know that for certain.

SouthernBubby wrote:

The pharmaceutical companies are required by the LAW to list autism, sids, encephalopathy, seizures, etc. on the vaccine inserts because of the FREQUENCY of reports following vaccination I.e. adverse events.

The FDA says that only 1-10% of adverse events are reported so the actual number of adverse events following vaccination is 10x - 100x MORE than reported! Doctors are required by Law to report adverse events but virtually no doctors do - and there is NO penalty. Instead doctors dismiss every adverse event as a "coincidence" even when there is no other possible cause!

The claim "correlation does not equal causation" was used by Tobacco Scientists hired by Tobacco Industry to FALSELY deny that smoking cause cancer.

It was Smoker vs Non-Smoker Studies that proved that Smoking DOES cause Cancer.

And the CDC adamantly refuses to do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study - because a
Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study would PROVE that vaccines cause autism, allergies, ADHD, epilepsy, asthma, learning disabilities, speech delays, diabetes, etc.

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 1:20 pm

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

Not all anti-vaxers are kooks unless they are followers of kooks. To me, someone who vaccinates in response to an outbreak is not a kook but someone who views homeopathy and multi level marketed health products as the answer to illness is pretty delusional in my humble opinion. I also have a hard time buying the opinion that because vaccines are injected, that they are more dangerous than those toxic substances that we are exposed to over long periods of time.

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 1:35 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

So you are not willing to even entertain the possibility that it isn't the reason why the CDC doesn't undertake such a study? Basically, if it is really as you say, non vaccinated would be perfectly healthy, which isn't what my understanding is and as long as people gave up vaccines , their only major health problems would be the possible return of epidemics which you don't view as possible because of good hygiene. I guess that anti-vaxers view diphtheria and polio as harmless or even as beneficial.

amother

Coral

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 1:53 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Your posts keep addressing kooks and their views. You didn't tell me how my not being a kook, yet being against vaccine mandates, helps me right now.

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 2:05 pm

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

Your posts keep addressing kooks and their views. You didn't tell me how my not being a kook, yet being against vaccine mandates, helps me right now.

It doesn't help you. Where did you get the impression that I said it would help you? It may help other students or teachers in the school that could be harmed by VPDs but it won't help you unless you want to avoid the VPDs.

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 2:38 pm

tryinghard wrote:

IIRC, the largest metastudy of vaccine studies found a very slight (more or less statistically insignificant) correlation between MMR and autism rates: MMR seems to have a very slight PROTECTIVE correlation regarding autism (the rates of autism were slightly lower in the MMR group).

They don't believe that study because it was funded by the pharmaceutical industry. I have a feeling that even if the CDC funded a study, unless it actually did prove a connection between autism and vaccines, they wouldn't believe it either. Until they win, they will keep fighting.

amother

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 8:19 pm

tryinghard wrote:

I remember reading that study a while back, I think it was mmr compared to another vaccine not compared with a placebo or non vaccinated child

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 8:27 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I remember reading that study a while back, I think it was mmr compared to another vaccine not compared with a placebo or non vaccinated child

The Denmark study compared vaccinated to non-vaccinated children. Denmark was chosen because vaccines are not mandatory. I believe that it only studied the affects of the MMR on those groups.

amother

Fuchsia

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 10:11 pm

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

My thought is that these types of attitudes are accepted until a specific outbreak occurs and people don't attempt to curb it.

I gave my kids each one dose of MMR after the outbreak began. (nothing else)

Unfortunately, the prevailing outlook is "all or nothing," so I'm in the same boat as anti-vaxxers who passed around measles to their classmates and neighbors.

I isolated my kids at the first signs of illness and that happened a few times this winter. I think I contributed to society as much as you did but stuck to my values

amother

Fuchsia

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 10:16 pm

tryinghard wrote:

lots of people who don't vaccinate have never heard of wakefield and the MMR autism link. so how does this help?
these children got other vaccines.
Most people who participated in the vaxxed movement reported autism after Dtap.
so let the MMR autism fly for now

#BestBubby

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 11:21 pm

southernbubby wrote:

So you are not willing to even entertain the possibility that it isn't the reason why the CDC doesn't undertake such a study?

Well, the CDC won't give any reason why they won't do a Vax vs UnVax study - even though congressmen requested it. 2 Congressmen tried to pass a law to FORCE the CDC to do a Vax vs UnVax study but the CDC is the biggest briber (donator) to congress so that went nowhere.

SouthernBubby, can you explain why CDC won't do a vax vs unvax study? Retrospective so there are no "ethical" issues.

amother

Coral

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 11:27 pm

southernbubby wrote:

The Denmark study compared vaccinated to non-vaccinated children. Denmark was chosen because vaccines are not mandatory. I believe that it only studied the affects of the MMR on those groups.

The study actually compared children who were vaccinated with all vaccines versus children who were vaccinated with all vaccines EXCEPT MMR. Those children were unvaccinated with MMR, but they weren't fully unvaccinated children.

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 28 2019, 11:34 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

My bet is that one side would find fault with the study since any study done is going to be torn apart by the "losing" side. My second bet would be because vaccines are necessary to prevent epidemics so even if it was determined that vaccines cause autism, nobody wants to go back to the time when parents of large families died childless due to epidemics.