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To the anti vaxers, did you vaccinate?
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amother




Aquamarine


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 9:40 am
whewpy wrote:
I am against this would be a philosophical exemption, which was NOT available in NY. One of the reasons NY abolished the religious exemptions was , when DOH spoke to various religious leaders, rabbis etc. They realized that many people were using I'm against this as an excusebthatbits religion....


Its rather damning evidence that frum schools were not allowing the religious exemption.
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amother




Blush


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 9:41 am
First off, I didn't tell you WHY I'm against this, and the WHY is the part where religion comes in.

Secondly, in NYS, the religious exemption was a personal religious belief, didn't need to be an organized religion. Doesn't matter what the rabbis, priests, etc. say. If I personally, based on my religion, feel it's against what I believe, I was entitled to a RE.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 9:49 am
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
Where is religion in the statement "I am against this"?

That's a statement of personal protest.


IMHO its preferable to remove the religious exemption, then push the state to be interpreters of what a religion does or does not permit.... because it wouldn't end well.


While I am as pro modern medicine as they come, a poster on another thread pointed out that even if you view anti-vaxers as the biggest fools on earth, when the government attempts to limit or infringe on religious expression, it will ultimately infringe on beliefs that we do consider important.
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amother




Aquamarine


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 9:56 am
southernbubby wrote:
While I am as pro modern medicine as they come, a poster on another thread pointed out that even if you view anti-vaxers as the biggest fools on earth, when the government attempts to limit or infringe on religious expression, it will ultimately infringe on beliefs that we do consider important.


Then people need to be honest players and not abuse the religious exemption to service their own personal convictions.

the positions ----- "the government should give us choice regarding what we inject our children with" and "the government shouldn't be able to dictate how many hours a day of secular study we teach our children" ------ do not infringe on Judaism unless the content of the secular education, or the content of the shots isn't 'kosher'.

They are both statements about the relationship between the government and its citizens.
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amother




Aquamarine


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 10:06 am
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
First off, I didn't tell you WHY I'm against this, and the WHY is the part where religion comes in.

Secondly, in NYS, the religious exemption was a personal religious belief, didn't need to be an organized religion. Doesn't matter what the rabbis, priests, etc. say. If I personally, based on my religion, feel it's against what I believe, I was entitled to a RE.



This section shall not apply to children whose parent,
parents, or guardian holds genuine and sincere religious
beliefs which are contrary to the practices herein required,
and no certificate shall be required as a prerequisite to such
children being admitted or received into school or attending
school.


Are you suggesting to me that Torah Jews can have more than one sincere religious belief?
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 10:25 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Care to share? I won't report you, I promise


School is mandatory at 5 yrs old so keeping home another year and will homeschool when applicable or hire private teacher. My child life is more important to me and we definitely still have the social
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 10:32 am
southernbubby wrote:
That's the million dollar question. What % of new parents who have not personally had bad experiences from vaccines, are persuaded not to vaccinate by social media such as the anti-vax posters on this site


I can't believe you keep shaming non vaxxers when you yourself saw vaccine injury in your son. You had a medical exemption for him and were willing to use him as a testing tool later on to "see" if he would be ok when he was getting vaccines at an older age. Realize that your son's reason for ME doesn't exist anymore to qualify and those parents are helpless but you keep rubbing this stuff in as nonsense. Vaccines are harmless? They harmed your family! You keep digging in the threads against everyone. And you know what, going to the ohel to daven is great, the Rebbe said very clearly in almost every single letter on vaccines to check reliability of manufacturing and safety. Do you really believe the Rebbe would say something SO MANY times if it were for no reason? The Rebbes words always were put there for a reason. Your attitude is appalling.
My child has many reasons why not to receive vaccines and yes it's against my religious belief to put my child in harm's Way given the situation we have. Just like it was your true belief to protect your son from siezures. Venishmartem meod Al nafshoseichem. And then you say no there is no basis in religion?!
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 10:49 am
amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:
I can't believe you keep shaming non vaxxers when you yourself saw vaccine injury in your son. You had a medical exemption for him and were willing to use him as a testing tool later on to "see" if he would be ok when he was getting vaccines at an older age. Realize that your son's reason for ME doesn't exist anymore to qualify and those parents are helpless but you keep rubbing this stuff in as nonsense. Vaccines are harmless? They harmed your family! You keep digging in the threads against everyone. And you know what, going to the ohel to daven is great, the Rebbe said very clearly in almost every single letter on vaccines to check reliability of manufacturing and safety. Do you really believe the Rebbe would say something SO MANY times if it were for no reason? The Rebbes words always were put there for a reason. Your attitude is appalling.
My child has many reasons why not to receive vaccines and yes it's against my religious belief to put my child in harm's Way given the situation we have. Just like it was your true belief to protect your son from siezures. Venishmartem meod Al nafshisoseichem. And then you say no there is no basis in religion?!


First of all, my son was not vaccinated at all from the age of 5 until he was the parent of small children, including an infant, and an outbreak occurred where he resides. His children are vaccinated. We listened to the advice of our doctors as did he as an adult. I didn't make a medical decision based on propaganda and neither did he but I got the impression that he never read Peach because he simply trusts his doctors.

Secondly, many rabbonim in Lubavitch believe that people should follow current medical opinions rather than following what is popular on social media.

Thirdly, I was in your corner until I saw the appalling attitude of many anti-vaxers towards people who had legitimate fears of catching measles.

Fourth of all, read what the CDC warns about people who should not be vaccinated, such as babies who cried for 3 hours straight from a previous shot. Doctors and health officials do have to be educated about when to offer exemptions.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 10:56 am
southernbubby wrote:
First of all, my son was not vaccinated at all from the age of 5 until he was the parent of small children, including an infant, and an outbreak occurred where he resides. His children are vaccinated. We listened to the advice of our doctors as did he as an adult. I didn't make a medical decision based on propaganda and neither did he but I got the impression that he never read Peach because he simply trusts his doctors.

Secondly, many rabbonim in Lubavitch believe that people should follow current medical opinions rather than following what is popular on social media.

Thirdly, I was in your corner until I saw the appalling attitude of many anti-vaxers towards people who had legitimate fears of catching measles.

Fourth of all, read what the CDC warns about people who should not be vaccinated, such as babies who cried for 3 hours straight from a previous shot. Doctors and health officials do have to be educated about when to offer exemptions.


Fifth is that Judaism believes in protecting health which at present, is viewed by many rabbonim as being obligated to vaccinate.
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 11:12 am
southernbubby wrote:
Fifth is that Judaism believes in protecting health which at present, is viewed by many rabbonim as being obligated to vaccinate.


Viewed by many rabbonim - Seriously? They did medical research? The Rabbonim in Crown Heights went solely according to 'professional' doctors, aka Dr. Rosen.. The rebbe CLEARLY stated that Drs dont have time to research antibiotics and they are overused and manufacturers have their own interests so one should do their own research. I would imagine this applies to vaccines. Yet, Chabad rabbonim ignore this AND the fact that the Rebbe clearly stated to check reliability of the manufacturers and safety of the vaccines, which most didnt. There are a few that did and only one that is vocal.
Take a look at this
https://greaterlakewood.com/op.....-why/

'judaism beliebes in protecting health' - you use the word 'at present', which means currently and not all the time. if times change, thats great. but the vaccines didnt and the schedule only got longer, so Im not about to alter my belief until they are proven safer. Just saying 'they are extreeemely safe and effective!' which is the ONLY statements ive seen from Blimi Marcus and other provaxxers, is not going to convince me. Prove every single argument I have about vaccines wrong first and then lets revisit this.
My rov will not tell me to vaccinate, especially given that A. they are not a one size fits all B. they dont even know my kids medical history.
CDC mentions clearly NOT to vaccinate children of parents or siblings with autoimmune disorder and guess what, Rabbonim and Govt know better? The govt is not a health committee and will not dictate what to do with my children. Dont turn your state of emergency into mine, it can cost a life - enough!
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 11:29 am
southernbubby wrote:
First of all, my son was not vaccinated at all from the age of 5 until he was the parent of small children, including an infant, and an outbreak occurred where he resides. His children are vaccinated. We listened to the advice of our doctors as did he as an adult. I didn't make a medical decision based on propaganda and neither did he but I got the impression that he never read Peach because he simply trusts his doctors.

Secondly, many rabbonim in Lubavitch believe that people should follow current medical opinions rather than following what is popular on social media.

Thirdly, I was in your corner until I saw the appalling attitude of many anti-vaxers towards people who had legitimate fears of catching measles.

Fourth of all, read what the CDC warns about people who should not be vaccinated, such as babies who cried for 3 hours straight from a previous shot. Doctors and health officials do have to be educated about when to offer exemptions.


Ok, so my bad, it was his choice, I guess he was raised with the tools to choose appropriately for this situation and Im glad there was a good outcome for him.
Just FYI I never saw or read peach. I researched based on intuition especially given medical issue and never turned back. No need for Peach.

People have fears of catching measles wont change a non vaxxers concern to vaccinate.. so how were you in this corner? You were anti but in state of measles outbreak you agree to vaccinate for their 'sake' when really? What emergency if nobody died? Were what we know farce if turned out to be proven correct? 1000+ REPORTED cases. Likely 50-75% of that # with unreported cases too. 0 deaths. What took you out of your corner?

Regardless of what CDC warns abt vaccination, GOVERNMENT overruled, because all of a sudden they know more about health.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 11:33 am
amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:
Viewed by many rabbonim - Seriously? They did medical research? The Rabbonim in Crown Heights went solely according to 'professional' doctors, aka Dr. Rosen.. The rebbe CLEARLY stated that Drs dont have time to research antibiotics and they are overused and manufacturers have their own interests so one should do their own research. I would imagine this applies to vaccines. Yet, Chabad rabbonim ignore this AND the fact that the Rebbe clearly stated to check reliability of the manufacturers and safety of the vaccines, which most didnt. There are a few that did and only one that is vocal.
Take a look at this
https://greaterlakewood.com/op.....-why/

'judaism beliebes in protecting health' - you use the word 'at present', which means currently and not all the time. if times change, thats great. but the vaccines didnt and the schedule only got longer, so Im not about to alter my belief until they are proven safer. Just saying 'they are extreeemely safe and effective!' which is the ONLY statements ive seen from Blimi Marcus and other provaxxers, is not going to convince me. Prove every single argument I have about vaccines wrong first and then lets revisit this.
My rov will not tell me to vaccinate, especially given that A. they are not a one size fits all B. they dont even know my kids medical history.
CDC mentions clearly NOT to vaccinate children of parents or siblings with autoimmune disorder and guess what, Rabbonim and Govt know better? The govt is not a health committee and will not dictate what to do with my children. Dont turn your state of emergency into mine, it can cost a life - enough!


Then at least respect the rights of those who fear catching measles. Unfortunately that hasn't been able consistently happening. Also, just as smallpox vaccine is no longer in use, someday other vaccines may be discontinued.
Also let's stay respectful of those medical professionals who keep Crown Heights residents healthy.
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 11:39 am
southernbubby wrote:
Then at least respect the rights of those who fear catching measles. Unfortunately that hasn't been able consistently happening. Also, just as smallpox vaccine is no longer in use, someday other vaccines may be discontinued.
Also let's stay respectful of those medical professionals who keep Crown Heights residents healthy.


This is not about Dr Rosen, its about the Rabbonim who blindly made a psak according to Medical advice and the Rebbe clearly stated that Drs dont have the time to do proper research and stated which things to look into. The Crown Heights rabbonim refuse to look into the matter. They have been approached MANY times.

What do you mean to 'respect the rights of those who fear catching measles'? To vaccinate my child who does not have the disease nor was exposed? Same way we have rights, so do they and we can all agree to disagree as we clearly dont, but why say one side trumps the other? We both have strong beliefs to our sides.
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tryinghard




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 11:41 am
One clarification on the religious exemption thing:
An attorney I know who was very involved in this issue explained it this way -
Schools are required to maintain vaccination records, and get in trouble if records aren’t in compliance. The religious exemption was supposed to allow the SCHOOL to remain in compliance if they chose to allow an exempt student to attend. However, the intent of the exemption was never to FORCE schools to accept students they would otherwise exclude - but that is what it evolved into: a blunt-force weapon to coerce schools.
A principal should be able to say, “You don’t want to vaccinate your child? Your choice. But I don’t need to allow them into my school. You feel vaccinations endanger your child’s life, but I feel just as strongly that unvaccinated children endanger other children as well as their families and teachers and I do not want that in my school. There may be some children who are medically fragile, immuno-compromised, etc - and it’s for their sake as well that we need to have everyone else vaccinated. The fewer unvaccinated individuals, the safer the entire community is.”

Religious exemptions came along and schools were it permitted to say that - and ludicrously, it was on the basis of religion, so that a religious institution was being told by someone of their own religion that that religion doesn’t allow it! And as was stated before, most REs were really “I am against it”. And even though you can find religious things to back it up after the fact, there is religious freedom of the institution that is now being infringed upon as well. Because doubtless those institutions would claim its against their religion to allow a few to endanger the rest!

So basically, something that was originally intended to ALLOW schools to do something they wanted to, turned into something that FORCED schools to do something they didn’t want to do.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 11:48 am
I just read Rabbi Green's article. He is forgetting how unprepared American society is for diseases that haven't been experienced in America in 2 or 3 generations. He can't cut a fearful public a little slack?
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 11:51 am
amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:
This is not about Dr Rosen, its about the Rabbonim who blindly made a psak according to Medical advice and the Rebbe clearly stated that Drs dont have the time to do proper research and stated which things to look into. The Crown Heights rabbonim refuse to look into the matter. They have been approached MANY times.

What do you mean to 'respect the rights of those who fear catching measles'? To vaccinate my child who does not have the disease nor was exposed? Same way we have rights, so do they and we can all agree to disagree as we clearly dont, but why say one side trumps the other? We both have strong beliefs to our sides.


If parents send mildly ill kids to school, shul, or day care, it often turns out to be something contagious and sometimes more serious.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:02 pm
amother [ Orchid ] wrote:
I know a non vax family that vaccinated their kids because of school.
And my Dr office says theyve had many many families who were previously against vaxing come in for immunizations.


The families are STILL against vaccinations. They were COERCED against their
will to vax.

Government Propaganda whipped up Hysterical Fear of Unvaxxed kids - even
though cars are a million times more dangerous than unvaxxed kids. Winning
public opinion through Propaganda allowed government to take away religious rights and parental rights.

Pro-Vaxxers will rue this day, when Government Tyrants take away our religious
rights and Parental Rights to educate our children in Yeshivas, give our children Bris Milah, do Shechitah, etc.

Either you support Freedom or you support Government Tyranny. You can't have both.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:04 pm
Also it is very hard for anyone to find unbiased information about the safety of vaccines and rely on the fact that the average person doesn't appear to be harmed by them.
Can anyone post links about what the Rebbe said about vaccines because I have seen various quotes taken out of context.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:08 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
How many of those people were not against vaccination prior to a propaganda campaign directly targeted at them?

How many actually think there is medical harm?

How many are "anti-vax" purely as protest?


Virtually all believe that vaccines do more harm than good.

Being "anti-vax" does not make you popular - it makes you hated.

One needs very strong belief that vaccines are dangerous to be an anti-vaxxer.

There is another group called "vaccine hesitant" who believe vaccines might be dangerous but aren't sure. This group is easily bullied by doctors into vaxxing.
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amother




Mauve


Post  Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:11 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Serious question. I'm just curious
Now that the new school year is starting and schools are so strict,

did you vaccinate?
Are you home schooling?
Are you getting around the system?
What are people doing?


I heard a school opened in Williamsburg for not non vaxxers. Called “im shatzbar” (hope I spelled that right!)
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