Imagine the Outrage

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 8:59 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

So I'll rephrase. Women are the root of all the world's ills. If a man sins, its because a woman caused it. If a tragedy happens, its because of women. If a child is born with spiritual deficits, it's because a woman caused a man to have improper thoughts during sx. And if a yeshua is needed, a woman has to fix something with herself, in order to clear the air so a yeshua can happen.

Have I got it right this time?

I think you got that down pat.

Beige, are you going to contradict this and say that this is not what pervasive communal message is every time that a tragedy occurs?

amother

Beige

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 9:05 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

No one here is saying that dressing in a non-tzniusdik way is right, but the degree of wrongness isn't even close.

To blame all of Klal Yisroel's problems on women's lack of tznius is absurd given the far worse sins that are being committed - by men, I might add.

Here, this is the post I am arguing with. Really? P0rn is so much worse than dressing badly? Says who?

No it's ridiculous to blame women for everything, I guess I just don't belong to a society that does so ... where I live it's the internet that's that's the root of all evils... aka p0rn. Pretty much what you're saying, brunette.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 9:08 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Hey, go a few posts upthread to where I explained how I came to that conclusion. It ain't rocket science. One brings about a clear-cut חיוב מיתה - cause and effect - while the other has a bunch of steps in between.

P0rn and Internet are not necessarily synonymous, Beige, which is a whole thread unto itself. The dire warnings about the evils of technology are mitigated strongly by a not-so-simple thing called a FILTER. But that's not good enough, apparently. Whatever.

If you belong to the yeshivish community, which you pretty clearly do, then you belong to a society which blames the bad things that happen on women.

amother

Orange

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 9:15 pm

Of course a man who molests a child is evil and will burn in gehenim for it.
One has nothing to do with the other.
Most men are not molesting children but many women are dressing in an immodest fashion and causing men to have inappropriate thoughts- leading them to lose their olam hoba
And as women there is something we could do about it. We could make sure we are as modest as possible outside. When a woman is really really modest than it's highly unlikely she will cause a man to have inappropriate thoughts about her (unless he's abnormal and attracted to women in loose clothing, wiggy wigs or cloth head coverings, minimal makeup etc...)
The problem is that so many of us have become so desensitized to what real modesty is that we think a nice natural looking wig, nice makeup, funky fitted clothes etc... is modest! If a woman is receiving a lot of compliments from others on how she looks chances are she's not really modest and she's attracting male attention too.
If a woman is really doing her part to downplay her attractiveness outside she will be ignored by men.
And yes, many litvish Gedolim have spoken strongly about tznius including Rav Elyashiv and Rav Chaim Kanievsky

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 9:18 pm

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

So if a woman is receiving compliments on her looks, that means she's not tznius?

You need to wear loose clothing, a wiggy wig, and minimal makeup to be tzniusdik?

It is a woman's job to downplay her attractiveness so that she is ignored by men?

Ravenclaw, I think this is what you were referring to in your OP.

Ravenclaw

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 9:44 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Yep...
I actually wanted to tell you how much I am enjoying your posts, Brunette.

So this is where we disagree Orange (Or Beige... for some reason I keep mixing you two up). We all agree that women shouldn't dress provocatively. But what is provocative? Honestly, I will fully agree that seeing women dressed in mini skirts and tank tops or bikinis will cause inappropriate thoughts. Fine. Then there is untznius, but not provocative, like jeans and a top that covers the hips (and the neckline isn't too low, yada yada). Then there is the majority of frum women, who wear makeup (not talking about smoky eye or anything, just normal) and have a skirt past their knee (though not way past), etc.

Can a guy still find her attractive? Sure. Is he now certainly going to sin because of her? No. And if she did hers, it's on him now.

amother

Brunette

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 10:44 pm

zaq wrote:

Hate to tell you innocent ladies, but...men will have sinful thoughts even if there isn’t a female for 100 miles around and the one that’s sitting at Mile 100 is a brass piping connection.

That doesn't excuse a woman whose dress and behavior is directly drawing men's stares and lustful thoughts. Yes, men will always have these thoughts (I read that a man has a thought about s-x once every 15 seconds, on average), but we need to do our part. That's it, though - our part, according to what halacha tells us.

amother

Cyan

Tue, Dec 03 2019, 10:49 pm

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

I have a feeling we have some guys on this thread, so let me tell you guys a secret about us women. We can also find guys attractive. So if a man was acting nice and sweet, and attracted my attention, and now I can't stop thinking of him, he will burn, right?
I mean according to your logic, that only makes sense.

No wonder why so many frum men lack any semblance of social graces in the workplace and are (expletives).
It them being tnius, not arrogant, self righteous, pompous, lacking respect for women or having their heads up their derrières.
Thank you so much for explaining.

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 12:18 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

Also isn't it amazing that we could do so something tangible to really help sick people!
The sacrifice in cutting a wig (or wearing a tichel), and upgrading in any area of modesty rocks Shamayim and brings tremendous yeshuas!
That's why Bnos Melochims phone line inspire by wire has literally hundreds of personal stories of women who were zoche to yeshuas because they took on different kabalos in modesty- such a gift!

A tichel is not necessarily tznius. From"Beautiful Within" on sie.org: "In the past the custom was to cut off the hair. Later on the custom spread of wearing a sheitel. Wearing a sheitel is especially appropriate now, when one can obtain a sheitel in various shades, which looks even nicer than one's own hair.
Let the woman ponder this matter. It doesn't take an hour or even a half-hour of contemplation. Why doesn't she really want to wear a sheitel but only a kerchief: because she knows that a sheitel cannot be taken off when she is walking in the street or is at a gathering, while a kerchief can be moved all the way up and sometimes taken off entirely, as known from practice.It is possible that she will say that she will wear a kerchief properly. If she does so, then surely it is well. But experience has shown that this is not the case.
The purpose of a sheitel is that the hair be completely covered if only a portion of the hair is covered then it does not accomplish this purpose.We verily observe that wearing a hat or even a kerchief
leaves part of the hair uncovered, at least for a short while, I.e., causing one to transgress a major prohibition, as explained in Shulchan Aruch , Orach Chayim ch. 75.
Let it be said that here goes a Jewish daughter."
The purpose of covering the hair is because a married woman's hair is considered erva. There are hair styles that are not appropriate even for a girl or woman who is unmarried - thosr same considerations of hairstyle should be taken into account when one buys a sheitel.

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 12:47 am

Ravenclaw wrote:

I used to think that the more stringent you were, the more authentic your yiddishkeit. I used to think that whoever wasn't far right must just be too morally weak, or that "this generation' was falling.

I have since changed my perspective a lot.

Imagine moshiach comes, and the bais hamikdash is built exactly as it was then. How many people can you see rioting at the lack of tznius of the ezras nashim? It was simply a balcony. Any man could crane his neck up and--gasp--see a woman! We need a wall with a reflective mirror or a sheet of plastic with tiny little holes that you can hardly see through.

When you start actually looking at the Torah, it becomes apparent how different the way we do things now is. And not always because we are "worse" and not as stringent.

See
http://portraitofaleader.blogs.....l?m=1

Odelyah

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 1:02 am

Yes a great Litvish Rebbetzin-- a true gedolah, shetichyeh, told me that in Lita wigs were preferred over non-wig coverings by the Roshei Yeshiva because a wig is put on and stays put, whereas a hat is something a woman sometimes takes off, puts on, when she goes different places throughout her day. A woman who wore a wig was making a statement-- I am a woman who is completely committed to keeping this mitzva 100%

Chabad minhag is similar-- maybe even stronger. It's really a matter of minhag. Obviously the sephardi minhag is very different, for example

And as far as wiggy wigs, she told me that when she came to Cleveland, in the early years after the war she only had expensive human hair (custom?) shaitels, because that was the only kind they could get in America. There was no Georgie and Jacquelyn back then.. (I'm sure they weren't very long though)

Odelyah

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 3:17 am

btw this was in the context of a conversation I had with her years ago, at the time when natural looking custom shaitels were becoming more and more common among young yeshivish kallahs (when I got married a few years earlier I was shocked about plunking down 300 a piece for my 2 top of the line, out of the box, human (Asian) hair wigs! so much money!)

my first shaitels always hurt me because they were too tight-- I had a big head (who knew!) and I got the ready made shaitels with the biggest cap, but they were still too small. So a shaitel macher eventually told me I should really get a custom shaitel (like for a thousand) so I could have a custom made cap, and I asked this rebbetzin, shetichyeh if it was a tzniyus issue to wear a shaitel that looked so real (I assumed it was) and her answer surprised me. She said she really wasn't concerned about the tzniyus aspect, it was a different issue entirely that concerned her a lot about this new trend. She said that they are a very expensive luxury-- something that only rich people can afford. But now that they became a thing that rich people are wearing, everyone sees them and wants them too and the luxury now becomes the norm for everyone, and that is a problem. (But personally if I needed one in order to not have headaches all the time, it was the right thing for me to get one. and she said I didn't need to get a custom cap with less natural Asian hair, which I actually had been thinking of doing for tzniyus, even though it would have cost the same.)

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 4:03 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

I think because it's all women here (I hope!) you're just not getting it.
When a man looks at a woman and she's made up with fake hair (which is usually nicer than her own so the whole concept of today's wigs kind of don't make sense) and fitted clothing he is most likely going to have inappropriate thoughts (unless he's not a normal healthy male)
These thoughts tend to lead to very sinful actions which cuz the man to lose his olam hoba which is not very happy ending for eternity. The woman who caused these thoughts (unintentionally or intentionally) is guilty as well and is punished as well. This is not something to be taken lightly- it's considered one if the worst sins and Hashem is not happy about it (that's an understatement)
That is why we have the laws of modesty- to prevent these terrible sins from occurring and to prevent many from losing their entire future life. Women definitely don't like to hear this- who wants to hear that they are accountable for people losing their afterlife. Women also have a really really strong yetzer hora to look beautiful outside- Hashem made us this war so it can be channeled at home only for ones husband. The real test today is to downplay ones looks outside- so yes wearing minimal makeup, less attractive wigs (or better yet cloth head coverings), looser clothing is a tremendous chesed to men and to other women's marriages. And it is on the mitzvah that a woman's future life hinges on. When Hashem created Chava he declared over very single limb- she should be a modest woman. Hashem didn't mention any other mitzvah.

Orange, Im sorry, but no, that is not how it works. Do you think that every time a man sees a pretty women, a woman not dressed fully or any female that might turn him on, he will always go an touch self or [finish]? If you think the answer is yes, you are very sheltered. Thats not how a grown man who travels through life, normal outside the bubble, big bad world life, works. Most men are not seeing things and going to find a place to finish themselves off. Really.

And as I mentioned above in the this thread, I believe, I never learned that tzniut was so that men dont sin. Tzniut is something all unto itself for a woman. It is soooo much more than that. And to teach girls that they have to dress a certain way so that men wont sin is a terrible thing to lay onto a person, and very unfair as well.

amother

Turquoise

Wed, Dec 04 2019, 4:06 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

This email was sent out to many people by Rav Shmuel Neiman, author of Nine to Five: A guide to modest conduct for today's workplace (I think Rav Neiman sends out daily inspirational emails)

It's very powerful!

Kreivah 11. The prohibition of looking at women

It is prohibited for a man to deliberately gaze at a woman. The poskim rule that this is forbidden only when his intent in doing so is to derive pleasure.

Because of this prohibition, it is essential that before leaving home, a woman should make certain that she will not be placing a stumbling block before the men at her workplace. She must be careful to both dress and walk modestly to avoid attracting attention. It is important to mention that the sheitel a woman wears should not be long,natural looking and attractive as this defeats the purpose of a sheitel. A woman who violates this halacha is as guilty as the men she causes to look at her.

The Skulener Rebbe said this past Rosh Hashana that the women's long sheitels and the women's short clothing are the direct cause to all illnesses

Helpful Suggestion:

It is appropriate to include a clause in a business contract signed with a female employee that she be careful to dress conservatively and maintain a professional and modest demeanor at the workplace.

So ome not tznius female out there caused my brother to get cancer? While I am very sad about my brother having cancer, that is not how the world works.
And I will say this, shame on the skulener rebbe for saying such a thing. Thats terrible and so immensely demeaning to half the population.