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So what actually works instead of hitting?
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 6:39 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Loved all your posts and this one too.

If anything Mishlei says "spare the rod spoil the child".

I personally think moderation is key. Hitting shouldn't be the only form of discipline. Talking is not always good either. And sometimes yelling is appropriate. Belittling js never appropriate.

There needs to be different reactions. Otherwise how are they to know that pulling mommy's skirt is not as bad as hitting?


Yes, it does say that, al pi halacha, spanking is a good method of discipline. But why do you extrapolate from there that spanking in anger is acceptable? Did you look into this or you're just assuming?
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 6:41 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Source? Cuz that's not what rashi says


So then a medrash says it. I assure you, it's written somewhere. Unless a bunch of my teachers, from various grades and subjects, got together and decided to plot together to spread false rumors about the halachic restriction against hitting in anger.
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amother




Indigo
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 6:50 pm
https://www.minnpost.com/secon.....inds/

Interesting real time study conducted by taping a digital recorder to mothers arms.
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ectomorph




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 6:53 pm
gold21 wrote:
Yes, it does say that, al pi halacha, spanking is a good method of discipline. But why do you extrapolate from there that spanking in anger is acceptable? Did you look into this or you're just assuming?

I never said it's acceptable. However I highly doubt it's halachically forbidden, dasan and aviram aside.

It's important to know what is halacha and what isn't.
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ectomorph




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 6:55 pm
amother [ Indigo ] wrote:
https://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2014/04/parents-often-spank-out-anger-and-trivial-reasons-real-time-study-finds/

Interesting real time study conducted by taping a digital recorder to mothers arms.

Cool, great link.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 6:59 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Cool, great link.


The article is against spanking.
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ectomorph




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 7:00 pm
gold21 wrote:
The article is against spanking.

So am I. But it's not forbidden by halacha.
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amother




Indigo
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 7:25 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Cool, great link.

You can thank professor google Smile

It’s interesting that at least in this study, it was overwhelmingly the mothers who delivered the spankings not the fathers.

Although I don’t know what normal mother would allow her daily parenting interactions to be recorded for a week. Let alone actually spank for even minor infractions when they knew they were being recorded! Maybe that in itself should distort the study results.
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amother




Fuchsia
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 7:29 pm
Acting in anger is not permissible no matter what the action is.
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allthingsblue




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 7:31 pm
The article I posted above states the halachos regarding hitting. Technically it's allowed but has to fit certain qualifications and one who hits without meeting those qualifications has sinned. Also, many recent great gedolim are quoted as being against hitting in today's generation. (Rav Wolbe, Rav Shach and Rav Elyashiv among others.)
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 7:57 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I'm assuming that #BestBubby was a very loving parent. You're projecting your own life onto other people. Not every case of defiance is always a cry for help.


Thank you, I was a loving parent.

Defiance is "natural". Nobody likes to be bossed. Some kids are more compliant, others not.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 8:05 pm
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
Did you try to understand the meaning behind the defiance? Just asking because I was awfully defiant and I guess if you were my mum you’d have locked me up big time but being defiant was my cry for help that went unheard


I think defiance is "natural" - some kids more than others. Nobody likes to be "bossed".
No child wants to go to bed, stop playing, etc.
But children have to learn to follow the routine.

I try to make the routine more pleasant - give a 5 minute warning to help kids transition.
Read stories by bedtime.
But co-operation is not optional.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 8:14 pm
Laiya wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong, but I assumed it comes from Moshe Rabbeinu saying to Dassan and Aviram, Rasha lama takeh es rey'echa?

The halachos of ben adam lachavero do not exempt parents. For instance, a parent who is emotionally abusive is over on ona'as devarim, ve'ahavta le'reicha kamocha, etc.

Eta. Just saw Allthingsblue's link


This is not actually true.

A parent is definitely allowed to hit or shame a child for chinuch reasons.

I'm not saying it's a good idea in the year 2020 - the Torah allowed polygamy also - but to make it a "halacha" is just not the reality.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 8:15 pm
gold21 wrote:
Yes, it does say that, al pi halacha, spanking is a good method of discipline. But why do you extrapolate from there that spanking in anger is acceptable? Did you look into this or you're just assuming?


It's definitely not acceptable hashkafically. I'm talking about halachically now. And just because all your teachers said it was so doesn't make it true. I can give you a list of a LOT of things my teachers told me as true which were actually not, and I'm sure you can too .
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 8:46 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
It's definitely not acceptable hashkafically. I'm talking about halachically now. And just because all your teachers said it was so doesn't make it true. I can give you a list of a LOT of things my teachers told me as true which were actually not, and I'm sure you can too .


So do you agree that we should carefully evaluate the things we are taught and accept nothing at face value?

Hey, I can't argue with that.

In any case, why don't we investigate the matter instead of engaging in a discussion of "I think", "I doubt", and "I assume". I'll try to look into it.
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amother




Coffee
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 8:50 pm
I've also always learnt that it's prohibited to hit out of anger.
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Laiya




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:43 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Source? Cuz that's not what rashi says


Right, rashi says he's a rasha. The question is for the source in Mishlei that explains how that fits in with the Rashi in shmos.

Eta. Iow, acc to rashi, straight pshat is that it's never ok. If you think mishlei contradicts that, then sources are need to explain how and when it is ok.


Last edited by Laiya on Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Laiya




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:48 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
This is not actually true.

A parent is definitely allowed to hit or shame a child for chinuch reasons.

I'm not saying it's a good idea in the year 2020 - the Torah allowed polygamy also - but to make it a "halacha" is just not the reality.


If you mean shaming verbally. Since the issur of ona'as devarim is outright pshat in chumash, you'd need a source that specifically exempts chinuch when it comes to shaming a child
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:58 pm
gold21 wrote:
So do you agree that we should carefully evaluate the things we are taught and accept nothing at face value?

Hey, I can't argue with that.

In any case, why don't we investigate the matter instead of engaging in a discussion of "I think", "I doubt", and "I assume". I'll try to look into it.


Ok, I did a bit of googling and there do seem to be some sources that say it's not allowed to hit when angry (truthfully, as another poster pointed out, you're not supposed to get angry all together - even yelling out of anger is not ok). I thought I saw sources the opposite way also.

But either way, it's definitely not ok to do any kind of chinuch out of anger as that would certainly not be chinuch, plus it's not considered ok to hit nowadays altogether, angry or not.

For OP above, I think it was considered within the norm to hit occasionally all those years ago when we were raising our children, but times have changed and things are different today.
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:05 pm
gold21 wrote:
So then a medrash says it. I assure you, it's written somewhere. Unless a bunch of my teachers, from various grades and subjects, got together and decided to plot together to spread false rumors about the halachic restriction against hitting in anger.

Am I the only one wondering why your teachers were so into teaching this? From various grades and subjects?
I read this in chinuch articles, in magazines, most likely. Didn't learn it in school.
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