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Forum
-> Parenting our children
allthingsblue
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 Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:12 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Ok, I did a bit of googling and there do seem to be some sources that say it's not allowed to hit when angry (truthfully, as another poster pointed out, you're not supposed to get angry all together - even yelling out of anger is not ok). I thought I saw sources the opposite way also.
But either way, it's definitely not ok to do any kind of chinuch out of anger as that would certainly not be chinuch, plus it's not considered ok to hit nowadays altogether, angry or not.
For OP above, I think it was considered within the norm to hit occasionally all those years ago when we were raising our children, but times have changed and things are different today. |
Like you said, anger isn't allowed, so it's not possible that sources say one can hit out of anger.
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Laiya
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:41 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | It depends on the kid, it depends on the circumstances. Sometimes it's the kid just wanting to play, sometimes it's defiance. You can see it when you see it. |
A question for those who feel hitting is sometimes ok, if not done out of anger and the situation calls for it, such as extreme chutzpah. How would you feel about your dc's rebbe hitting under those circumstances?
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mommy201
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:48 pm
| #BestBubby wrote: | | That is another tip I recommend and the gentle parenting moms say I am "abandoning" my child when s/he is upset. Hey, parents are people too and also get upset. I think parents taking time out to calm down is great. People put too many demands on parents. Not fair. |
Yeah taking time out yourself is good. On your own! Not being punished or sent to your room by someone else. Imagine your husband sending you to your room for time out... your equating the parent to child here so just helping out....
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Mommyg8
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:50 pm
| Laiya wrote: | | A question for those who feel hitting is sometimes ok, if not done out of anger and the situation calls for it, such as extreme chutzpah. How would you feel about your dc's rebbe hitting under those circumstances? |
All the Rebbeim hit in my days. Or almost all.
Obviously, times have changed and a Rebbe hitting is not ok anymore.
That said, one of my sons had a hitting Rebbe and he was actually a very good Rebbe.
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amother
White
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:51 pm
I have a secret for those who don't yet know:
Those kids who learned through getting potched... they are the easy ones, who could have learned easily from any other discipline method.
And those kids who didn't learn and had to get potched over and over... they still haven't learned what you intended to teach them. Instead they learned that even their parents can turn on them so best to trust no one. They learned that they are a worthless whipping boy. And that the biggest one gets to hit.
Now you know the secret too.
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mommy201
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:54 pm
| pause wrote: | | Mommyg8, not obeying a command to don PJ's is not considered chutzpah |
Many people just want something that “works” and “nips the problem in the bud” .
I totally get that. I was like that too until I realized there’s more then just getting the kids in control and fixing them. There’s a delicate relationship there that needs building and the only 1 I can really control is myself.
I also try each day to change my mindset that I’m not there to fix and change my children, I am there to teach them to do the right thing and help the grow.
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mommy201
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:56 pm
| #BestBubby wrote: | | That is rewarding bad behavior. |
Oysh so not!
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mommy201
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:58 pm
| #BestBubby wrote: | Not the only. Every child is different.
1. Talking to child, explaining why it's wrong.
2. Set up reward chart.
3. Taking away toy,
4. loss of privilege (bedtime story)
5. Mom going into time-out. Taking a break away from kids to calm down.
6. child going into time-out. |
But you almost never use any of these tactics when someone posts about kids misbehavior , you almost always say to do some form of serious punishment. I don’t recall you at least telling someone , first try explaining to your child what they did wrong.... why is this?
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Laiya
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:59 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | All the Rebbeim hit in my days. Or almost all.
Obviously, times have changed and a Rebbe hitting is not ok anymore.
That said, one of my sons had a hitting Rebbe and he was actually a very good Rebbe. |
Yes, I know it was done in the past. So you were ok with your ds's rebbe who hit? I don't know how long ago that was--would you still be ok with that today?
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#BestBubby
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:00 pm
| mommy201 wrote: | | But you almost never use any of these tactics when someone posts about kids misbehavior , you almost always say to do some form of serious punishment. I don’t recall you at least telling someone , first try explaining to your child what they did wrong.... why is this? |
I assume the parent tried talking or alternative punishments first.
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Mommyg8
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:00 pm
| Laiya wrote: | | Yes, I know it was done in the past. So you were ok with your ds's rebbe who hit? I don't know how long ago that was--would you still be ok with that today? |
Yes. I would be. It was pretty recent actually.
Anyway, I'm from the old generation so there's no point in trying to get me to change my mind.
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mommy201
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:01 pm
| pause wrote: | More often than not, when a kid refuses to put on PJ's, it's the kid wanting to play and the toy is more compelling than PJ's. That's not defiance, in my book. That's a kid who wants to play. I would gently hold onto the kid's hand and lead him away from the toy to his room. Or I would say, "Now is PJ time, but if you're ready before x time, you'll be able to play another few minutes."
Turning bedtime into a power struggle, by calling such behavior defiance, is a reaaaaaaaaaaally bad idea. |
This!!
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Mommyg8
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:03 pm
| amother [ White ] wrote: | I have a secret for those who don't yet know:
Those kids who learned through getting potched... they are the easy ones, who could have learned easily from any other discipline method.
And those kids who didn't learn and had to get potched over and over... they still haven't learned what you intended to teach them. Instead they learned that even their parents can turn on them so best to trust no one. They learned that they are a worthless whipping boy. And that the biggest one gets to hit.
Now you know the secret too. |
This has actually not been my experience. I found that some kids listen when things are explained to them, almost all kids listen when they are offered some kind of incentive, but some kids really do need that physical reinforcement.
Again, if it's not ok to hit today, it doesn't matter if it really works or not so there's no point in further discussion.
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Laiya
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:04 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Yes. I would be. It was pretty recent actually.
Anyway, I'm from the old generation so there's no point in trying to get me to change my mind. |
Lol my guess is I'm from the same generation as you. Unless you meant that in the metaphoric sense. In any case I was just curious.
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notshanarishona
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:10 pm
| Stars wrote: | So it's working for the moment, yay. Have you thought about what will happen when your kids grow up? How long will you keep threatening potches, 14? 16? 18? 20?
My kids also ran into the street ahead of me one time (age 5 and above. The potch for unsafe things is for 3 and under because they don't understand punishment yet). You know what I did? I told them strictly if they ever did it again they'd be grounded for a month. They never did it again. Because they know I will carry out my word. |
But that's a rediculous unrealistic threat. I can't imagine ever grounding a kid for a month. I don't think it's good to use threats that you will never use and I really hope you wouldn't carry out your word on something like this.
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amother
White
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:13 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | but some kids really do need that physical reinforcement.
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I don't believe anyone ever needs "physical reinforcement" but for argument's sake, you really wouldn't know this unless it was you yourself. And that's a sum total of 1 person.
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Mommyg8
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:15 pm
| amother [ White ] wrote: | | I don't believe anyone ever needs "physical reinforcement" but for argument's sake, you really wouldn't know this unless it was you yourself. And that's a sum total of 1 person. |
What does that even mean? Why do you think I don't understand how some other people work?
I've had brothers, sons.... not sure what you mean.
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mommy201
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:19 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Trust me, I am the least strict mother on the planet (and it's not necessarily a good thing).
But I still think that children have to listen to parents. You disagree? |
Yes children need to listen to their parents but not for our honor but for their honor. It’s because ego is involved here that most parents fall prey to their children’s misbehavior and feel they must correct it because if affects our ego.
Imagine your 4 year old turned on the light on the light on shabbos. I would think most of us would just say “oysh it’s shabbos, we can’t turn on the light” doubt anyone would resort to punishing.
But howcome if that same 4 year old is defiant or “chutzpahdik” (however you define chutzpah) they we need to punish, time out....
Don’t you see how our egos get in the way? So are we really reaching our kids the right way and the right thing?
I challenge anyone who practices “tougher” parenting to make sure that they are tough and punish their kids with every aveira they do even when it’s between the kid and G-d. (I’m kidding , please don’t do this- but please use this to think about what and why we do this)
Last edited by mommy201 on Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Laiya
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:19 pm
| ectomorph wrote: | | Source? Cuz that's not what rashi says |
Here's a better explanation regarding a someone who hits being called a rasha, from Dr. Benzion Sorotzkin. A highly worthwhile read. (And also addresses Mommyg8 requesting a source)
https://drsorotzkin.com/wp-con.....s.pdf
| wrote: | The sefer Kibbud Av Va’eim (Rabbi Hillel Litwack, p. 32) asks how a child can
permit his parent to violate a Torah law by submitting to being hit and embarrassed in
public by his parent. He also suggests that the child is not even permitted to be mochel
[to allow, to forgive] the parent since a person is not permitted to harm himself. Likewise
it’s possible that one is not permitted to allow a parent to embarrass him in public since it
is comparable to murder. He also concludes that it must be after the fact. Rabbi Litwack
also asks why the Mechaber doesn’t discuss the issue if the child is permitted to try to
stop the parent before the fact as he does in a different case involving monetary loss. He
cites one authority who suggested that it may be too obvious to mention that the child is
not obligated to allow the parent to hit him for no good reason.
Wicked parents
The Yam Shel Shlomo, suggests that perhaps it would be a meritorious act (midas
chasiddus – I.e., beyond the letter of the law) not to protest even before the fact,
providing the parent truly (albeit erroneously) believed that this was an appropriate
educational intervention, for if the parent simply acted in a fit of anger then he is a rosha
[wicked person]. In the Chidushei Rabbeinu Yaakov me’Lublin ve’Rabbeinu Heshel
me’Krakaw (in the Tur Hachodosh) it states that if the father is acting like a rosha then
the son is permitted to insult him [lehachlimo]. While the Rambam and the Mechaber
rule that there is an obligation to honor a wicked parent, the Ramo and the majority of
poskim disagree. The Oruch Hashulchan rules like the Ramo. A very prominent posaik
told me that the normative Halacha is like the Ramo...
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So to recap, we don't have an obligation to honor a wicked parent, and are even permitted to insult a parent who is a rasha, at least according to some, if not the majority, of poskim. AND a parent who hits out of anger is a rasha.
Last edited by Laiya on Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mommy201
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Mon, Jan 20 2020, 11:22 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | This is not actually true.
A parent is definitely allowed to hit or shame a child for chinuch reasons.
I'm not saying it's a good idea in the year 2020 - the Torah allowed polygamy also - but to make it a "halacha" is just not the reality. |
I would love to see a source that a parent is allowed to shame for chinuch? I find that extremely hard to believe.
There are definitely sources for the opposite. With some time I can dig them up.
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