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So what actually works instead of hitting?
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:24 pm
mommy201 wrote:
I would love to see a source that a parent is allowed to shame for chinuch? I find that extremely hard to believe.

There are definitely sources for the opposite. With some time I can dig them up.


I think there are sources both ways, but I would need to do some research. Anecdotal evidence suggests that it was at least very common in Europe, even if it wasn't sanctioned by halacha.
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amother




Scarlet
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:26 pm
[quote="amother [ Mistyrose ]"]Am I the only parent who learned how to parent from supernanny Speechless ? Her techniques work wonders. I love her. Even for my special child.[/quote
I thought I was the only one! LOL
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:26 pm
I would never hit my kids. I use positive reinforcement, rewards, catch my kids being good, but show disappointment when not. Time out when necessary (NOT locking in the room for 10 mins that’s way too long).
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mommy201




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:26 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
I assume the parent tried talking or alternative punishments first.


Why would you assume that? Many people yell or punish as soon as their child acts out.
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Laiya




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:27 pm
A great story worth sharing that hits on some of the issues here, also from the same link of Dr. Sorotzkin:

wrote:
See Sefer Kibbud Av Va’eim (Rabbi Hillel Litwack) p. 65, citing Sefer Habris. Rabbi Yechiel Yacobson, a well-known mechanech in Eretz Yisroel, relates a story. A father told the Steipler Gaon that he is concerned that his son is violating the mitzvah of kibbud av va’eim by not listening to him. The Steipler got upset at the father. “If you tell him things you know he won’t listen to then you are in violation of lefnei eveir lo setain michshol. As for your son, there is a simple solution, you can be mochel him, and if you don’t you are foolish because you will be held responsible for that also.”
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amother




Yellow
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:29 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I think there are sources both ways, but I would need to do some research. Anecdotal evidence suggests that it was at least very common in Europe, even if it wasn't sanctioned by halacha.


Should we make a list of things that were commonly done in Europe that are not consistent with the Torah?
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 9:41 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Am I the only one wondering why your teachers were so into teaching this? From various grades and subjects?
I read this in chinuch articles, in magazines, most likely. Didn't learn it in school.


So? Sure, wonder about it, if that makes you happy. I dunno how it's relevant.
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:11 pm
gold21 wrote:
So? Sure, wonder about it, if that makes you happy. I dunno how it's relevant.

It makes me happy? I'm genuinely curious where it came in. It's not hands-on relevant, because I don't hit in anger, or without anger, but I can still wonder.
You seem to imply that I'm out to get you. I'm not. I know it could be confusing with a bunch of anonymous posters, but I don't think I interacted with any posts here.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jan 20 2020, 10:23 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
It makes me happy? I'm genuinely curious where it came in. It's not hands-on relevant, because I don't hit in anger, or without anger, but I can still wonder.
You seem to imply that I'm out to get you. I'm not. I know it could be confusing with a bunch of anonymous posters, but I don't think I interacted with any posts here.


Lately most of the posters I talk to are Amother, so it does get confusing, yeah, good point, lol.

Where it came in? I dunno. Chumash? Parsha? Pirkei Avos? Mishlei? Maybe someone else here can weigh in?
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amother




Linen
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 3:33 am
Sara89 wrote:
forget locking your child in his room for a few min. try locking yourself in your room for a few min to keep your own emotions under control before responding if needed. you never want to react when emotionally dysregulated or you are modeling the opposite of how you want your child to behave.


This. Hitting doesn't work with my daughter. I have to control myself for not going out of my locker because sometimes she can draw out the blood from under my nails. I still love her to pieces. Funny no?

And stay consequent. If you say something go till the end. They will see you mean it. Kids are always testing the limits. If you say no 9 times and yes the 10the time well she will know for next time to pester till 15 times and then you will say yes... Not easy at all.
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allthingsblue




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 5:06 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I think there are sources both ways, but I would need to do some research. Anecdotal evidence suggests that it was at least very common in Europe, even if it wasn't sanctioned by halacha.


It was also common for women to not cover their hair or elbows.

Did you read the article I posted? It would seem that as of the last few decades, the greats of our generation have been opposed to hitting.
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morningsickness




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 5:22 am
I've deffinately lost my temper more than I like with my precocious, amazingly stubborn kids (they got it from me Very Happy )
I will be following this thread for more great ideas.

We were deffinately potched every so often as kids. I was potched less than my brothers.
When I recall the potches I got from my mother A"h, I cringe inside. When she potched us, she POTCHED us. She didn't do it often, and she only did it when she was scared or anxious and used anger to deal with that (e.g. kids not coming home on time or wandering off or doing something dangerous) but it still was a horrible experience, mainly because of the anger that came with it.
My dad also potched us too, occasionally. We all have big mouths in the family and if the chutzpah toward my mom would cross a red line she would report it to my dad when he got home. However, the experience from those potches always brings a whimsical smile to my face.
Mom would tell dad how badly we behaved. Dad would nod his head solemnly, then tell us that he regretfully has to potch us, since our actions are so severe that he has no choice. The child who misbehaved would then go into another room with Dad, who would take our hand and give us a firm but not painful tap on our hands. Ultimately, we would start to cry, but not out of pain but from embarrassment at being punished. Then Dad would leave the room and life would resume as usual...

What I learned from those experiences is the difference between a potch done for Chinuch, and a potch done to relieve the parent's anger or stress. The former is beneficial and educational and leaves no lasting negativity. The latter confuses the child and makes them feel shame, (not to be confused with guilt).
Can't say I am perfect in that regard, though I have a clear picture of where I want to get to. I don't want to ever potch out of anger or as stress relief. I am not ruling out potching altogther. There might be drastic situations that call for it...
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 6:52 am
allthingsblue wrote:
It was also common for women to not cover their hair or elbows.

Did you read the article I posted? It would seem that as of the last few decades, the greats of our generation have been opposed to hitting.


No, I didn't read the article, but saying "the greats of our generation have been opposed to hitting" is not strictly true. I read an article recently where they interviewed (I think it was) Rav Shlomo Kanievsky and he said that his father (Rav Chaim Kanievsky) regularly patched his children. For not doing well in school, among other things. So that would be a very interesting read to see who is arguing with R Chaim.

I think it's important to clarify what is meant by potching for chinuch though - as morningsickness wrote, there is a difference between letting out your frurstration and hitting for chinuch. The kind of hitting that is discussed in Jewish sources does not resemble the horrible things I read in the "using a belt" thread.
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allthingsblue




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 7:35 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
No, I didn't read the article, but saying "the greats of our generation have been opposed to hitting" is not strictly true. I read an article recently where they interviewed (I think it was) Rav Shlomo Kanievsky and he said that his father (Rav Chaim Kanievsky) regularly patched his children. For not doing well in school, among other things. So that would be a very interesting read to see who is arguing with R Chaim.

I think it's important to clarify what is meant by potching for chinuch though - as morningsickness wrote, there is a difference between letting out your frurstration and hitting for chinuch. The kind of hitting that is discussed in Jewish sources does not resemble the horrible things I read in the "using a belt" thread.


One of the names quoted is Rav Chaim's own father in law, Rav Elyashiv.
As well as Rav Shach and Rav Wolbe.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 7:51 am
Wow! I'm so surprised no one mentioned blimie hellers course....gone are the screaming days, and blowing days....she transformed our lives! When my husband came home from work one day he said "u can feel the peace in our home"....and the other day my six year old commented "y'know those moms who punish kids dont make the situation better they make it worse"

Blimie doesnt give you RULES, you teaches you to love your kids who love you back! It has worked with all my kids bh
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 8:04 am
allthingsblue wrote:
One of the names quoted is Rav Chaim's own father in law, Rav Elyashiv.
As well as Rav Shach and Rav Wolbe.


What are you saying here? That Rav Shlomo was mistaken? That he doesn't remember his childhood correctly?

Anyway, it doesn't really matter what was done in the past - look at the heading for that section:

"Today it is different".

No-one is arguing that nowadays heavy CP is allowed. But it was definitely allowed in the past, and considered part of chinuch.
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allthingsblue




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 8:14 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
What are you saying here? That Rav Shlomo was mistaken? That he doesn't remember his childhood correctly?

Anyway, it doesn't really matter what was done in the past - look at the heading for that section:

"Today it is different".

No-one is arguing that nowadays heavy CP is allowed. But it was definitely allowed in the past, and considered part of chinuch.


I was simply answering your question. You wanted to know who the "greats" I was referring to were. I answered. You know of one great person who said his great father patched him. There seem to be many more great people who do not advocate it. Rav Shach, Rav Wolbe are not talking about 2020. We are most likely talking about the 1980s-1990s.
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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 8:40 am
This morning, my 7 year old had a temper tantrum bec. he noticed his older silbings had ice cream w hen he was asleep. oops. Anyway. He was already dressed , and took off his clothes (he hasn't done this since he was 3). I told him I'll discuss the ice cream after I see he's ready for school (praying that it'll be before the bus comes) and totally ignored him. Took a long break in the bathroom. He was dressed when I came back.

My problem is that his father and I are not on the same page when it coems to parenting. Therefore they are less afraid of me. (not that I want them to ever ever fear me, but when fear of their father is associated wiht how well they behave...) the older ones have less respect for me. Does anyone have this issue with parenting, where you and your husband have completely different methods?
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 8:42 am
It seems to work when I give my 3yo structure and responsibility. Obviously it won't work for everyone, but I am enjoying how it works in my case.
We were in NY for a month. I am the oldest of a lot, and my youngest sibling just turned 5. He is a very very difficult kid. I'm not criticizing my parents in any way. But my brother has zero structure, no official mealtime or bedtime, and he is totally treated like a baby. He knows that all everyone wants is for him to shut up, so he'll kvetch and cry and carry on until he gets what he wants, and it works within seconds. For the entire month that we were at my parents, my 3yo started behaving like my brother. He was given no structure or responsibility (I was so busy with my baby, and noone wanted to help me out with either of my kids). He stuck with my brother, followed him around, copied him, and acted like a MAJOR brat. Everything was "NO!" and "but [brother] isn't doing/eating/wearing it!"
It took a good week and a half to get him back on track! There is official wakeup and breakfast time. He makes his own bed and feeds himself breakfast. He gets undressed himself and puts his pajamas in the hamper. He packs his schoolbag himself. These are his jobs, and he knows it. When he refuses and screams and hits me, I take his hand (or catch it mid-hit if I'm quick enough) and gently say "tell me what you want. Say 'I want to....?'" Keep repeating if needed. And he calms down and says "I want to play/wear my pajamas/drink soda for breakfast". So I explain that we are not doing that now, but if we get dressed fast enough we can play until we go to school or hold a toy in the car on the way. Or haha thats silly! Youre so silly! We cant wear pajamas to school!!! Does morah wear pajamas to school? Haha noooo thats so funny! Etc.
Sometimes when it's a full blown tantrum, I let him cry and I sit down and tell him "you're so upset, and you're crying. I'm waiting right here for you when you're ready." And after a few minutes he'll come over and I give him a huge hug and verbalize exactly why he's crying and how he's feeling for him "You're so upset because you don't want to go to bed. You want to play with your magna tiles instead of going to sleep, so you started crying and potching mommy." He'll nod/agree/repeat what I said. And then I say "OK I know magna tiles are so much fun right? How about we put them in a safe place so we can find them tomorrow?" And just rinse and repeat.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Jan 21 2020, 11:38 am
mommy201 wrote:
Why would you assume that? Many people yell or punish as soon as their child acts out.


So yelling and alternative punishment were tried FIRST before giving a potch.
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