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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Sat, Feb 29 2020, 10:13 pm
OP this may not be what you want to hear, but I would bet my bottom dollar that this child has pans or pandas or some form of encephalitis. His symptoms are screaming "brain on fire!". Have you ever had him evaluated for any of these?
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bigsis144




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Feb 29 2020, 10:58 pm
Re: PANDAS, I have not yet had him evaluated for that. None of the pediatricians or mental heath professionals I’ve met with have suggested checking for it (I know it is a somewhat controversial topic)
- not a sudden onset thing
- no episodic/macro swings in behavior/mood
- no tics/OCD behaviors
- he has been on antibiotics numerous times, for various reasons (after strep, after getting stitches, etc)



Re: psychiatry, we tried adderall but that didn’t help (it certainly made it even harder to judge the effects when he would fight taking his meds or spit them out, so that we never got baseline data).

BH I heard back from someone and DS7 will start seeing someone that takes my insurance this Wednesday. I will have to pull DS7 out of school early every week and rearrange carpool and after school care for DS10 (who is livid with me for this, he has his issues too, HaShem bless us all). DS7 wants to “atomic bomb the world” rather than go to therapy, but tough noogies. GOD I have sympathy for Calvin’s parents in Calvin and Hobbes. Also Nani from Lilo & Stitch.

And I have a phone consult with a highly recommended expert (who does NOT take insurance) on Tuesday to see what treatment they recommend and whether we should start the intake process with them.

But DS7 went to mincha-maariv with my husband today!! He brought the Gadi Pollack illustrated Megillas Esther and didn’t disturb people in shul, and devoured 4 rolls at shalosh seudos. And he went to motzei Shabbos learning too (mostly for the story and pizza, but DH tries to work on Kriah with him).

DS7 is such a good kid, he’s brilliant and creative and sensitive and can be so snuggly and sweet... I daven for him so so much 💙
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sequoia




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 4:40 am
Where’s your husband?
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sequoia




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 5:29 am
The current and ongoing situation of you fawning over them and begging them not to abuse you or hurt the baby cvs is horrendous and horrific. You are a women fawning over and pandering to your abusers. You may say, “they’re not men, 7 and 10 year olds are children.” But what matters is that they are taking advantage of your weakness. They are behaving like abusers. And you keep repeating, “good kid.”

Here’s the thing: they don’t need you, or female therapists or teachers or principals. They need their father. They need him to be intensely interested in them, disciplining immediately every single time, and modeling good midos of how we treat the women in our lives. They need his love, strength, time, presence, focused attention, and security. Most of all, your husband must protect you, not just by punishing but by emphasizing over and over, “we are men. We don’t hurt women. We love, cherish, and protect them. So don’t you dare hurt MY WIFE. She’s the most precious and important person in the world to me.”

Quit your jobs, move to the mountains, herd goats, grow hemp, but find some way for your husband to be in charge of their upbringing. Otherwise you are raising abusers and, by your own fawning behavior, demonstrating exactly how victims behave. They are getting older, taller, and stronger. They are not getting better.
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sequoia




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 5:57 am
I just read your posts in the zmiros thread and am even more horrified, if that’s possible. Ok, presumably your husband works a lot during the week. But he’s home on shabbos! He’s at the table! Leading the meal! And your sons physically put their hands over your mouth and tell you to shut up and HE ALLOWS IT?! You have to walk on eggshells?!

No. Just no. Something is very, very wrong. It’s not the kids who are the problem.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 6:22 am
sequoia wrote:
I just read your posts in the zmiros thread and am even more horrified, if that’s possible. Ok, presumably your husband works a lot during the week. But he’s home on shabbos! He’s at the table! Leading the meal! And your sons physically put their hands over your mouth and tell you to shut up and HE ALLOWS IT?! You have to walk on eggshells?!

No. Just no. Something is very, very wrong. It’s not the kids who are the problem.


This whole thing is so multifaceted that it's hard to know where it ends and begins. I absolutely agree that whole family therapy is in order, but OP also needs to look into the medical side of things.

OP, you say that your kids have had strep. Do they still have their tonsils? If so, they should see a top ENT and have them checked out.

When DD was 4 she was hell on wheels. When she was 5 and started kindergarten she had strep 6 times in one year. We were both on antibiotics more often than not. I ended up getting Scarlet Fever. We ended up getting referred to an excellent ENT. He took one look at DD's throat and said "WHOA! How do you breathe?" In all his time as an ENT (40 years) he's only seen 10 cases as bad as hers.

Her tonsils and adenoids came out, and 24 hours it was like she had a personality transplant. She was the sweetest, kindest, most helpful girl you could imagine. It was truly stunning what a difference it made. I also never got strep again.

The ENT said that strep can hide in the tonsils, and the antibiotics can't reach it in there. It just sits there and flares up over and over again until you take it's shelter away completely. I had no idea strep could even do that! People think that taking tonsils out is old fashioned, and most doctors won't do it without repeat strep infections these days. There are definitely times when it is still medically warranted, and should be considered very seriously.
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dankbar




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 7:40 am
Hugs to you!
It's murder, to deal with such a child!

Where is he getting his language from?

When my 7 yr old starts acting up, I know he needs to use the bathroom. Until he doesn't go, he will act crazy & doesn't even know he needs to go, but after he is done with the bathroom, he calms down on his own.
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bigsis144




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 8:51 am
sequoia wrote:
The current and ongoing situation of you fawning over them and begging them not to abuse you or hurt the baby cvs is horrendous and horrific.

...

Here’s the thing: they don’t need you, or female therapists or teachers or principals. They need their father. They need him to be intensely interested in them, disciplining immediately every single time, and modeling good midos of how we treat the women in our lives. They need his love, strength, time, presence, focused attention, and security. Most of all, your husband must protect you, not just by punishing but by emphasizing over and over, “we are men. We don’t hurt women. We love, cherish, and protect them. So don’t you dare hurt MY WIFE. She’s the most precious and important person in the world to me.”


DH is on the spectrum and I’ve been dealing with that for twelve years too... I was in denial about that for a loooong time...

My parents are seriously considering moving to my town when my youngest brother finishes high school. My dad came to visit recently - he lived in my house for almost 6 weeks, and he remarked multiple times about how “detached” DH can be... DH will take my boys out for long bike rides, but all of the parental emotional connection and modeling comes from me. My dad really did try to be a positive role model for my boys during his stay, sticking up for me and challenging them on their backtalk and roughness. He looks forward to continuing that into their teen years.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 8:53 am
bigsis144 wrote:
Re: PANDAS, I have not yet had him evaluated for that. None of the pediatricians or mental heath professionals I’ve met with have suggested checking for it (I know it is a somewhat controversial topic)
- not a sudden onset thing
- no episodic/macro swings in behavior/mood
- no tics/OCD behaviors
- he has been on antibiotics numerous times, for various reasons (after strep, after getting stitches, etc)



Re: psychiatry, we tried adderall but that didn’t help (it certainly made it even harder to judge the effects when he would fight taking his meds or spit them out, so that we never got baseline data).

BH I heard back from someone and DS7 will start seeing someone that takes my insurance this Wednesday. I will have to pull DS7 out of school early every week and rearrange carpool and after school care for DS10 (who is livid with me for this, he has his issues too, HaShem bless us all). DS7 wants to “atomic bomb the world” rather than go to therapy, but tough noogies. GOD I have sympathy for Calvin’s parents in Calvin and Hobbes. Also Nani from Lilo & Stitch.

And I have a phone consult with a highly recommended expert (who does NOT take insurance) on Tuesday to see what treatment they recommend and whether we should start the intake process with them.

But DS7 went to mincha-maariv with my husband today!! He brought the Gadi Pollack illustrated Megillas Esther and didn’t disturb people in shul, and devoured 4 rolls at shalosh seudos. And he went to motzei Shabbos learning too (mostly for the story and pizza, but DH tries to work on Kriah with him).

DS7 is such a good kid, he’s brilliant and creative and sensitive and can be so snuggly and sweet... I daven for him so so much 💙


Adderall is probably not even the first recommendation an experienced child psychiatrist would make regarding this child. I don't know who prescribed it, but I do know that consulting with a psychiatrist can give you a lot of information as to other options. You need major intervention at this point.
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amother




Cobalt
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 9:08 am
Honestly I think at this point the only thing that could help them is getting them out of the house. Where to, one God knows. Only then can you get them into various forms of aggressive therapy. Occupational therapy, play therapy, talk therapy if they'll talk, all won't work as long as they're in the environment that is feeding their behavior.
Also try the Motrin test. Give your younger son motrin every six hours for one day and if you magically have a different child find yourself a pandas literate doctor
A
S
A
P.
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amother




Pink
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 10:52 am
sequoia wrote:
The current and ongoing situation of you fawning over them and begging them not to abuse you or hurt the baby cvs is horrendous and horrific. You are a women fawning over and pandering to your abusers. You may say, “they’re not men, 7 and 10 year olds are children.” But what matters is that they are taking advantage of your weakness. They are behaving like abusers. And you keep repeating, “good kid.”

Here’s the thing: they don’t need you, or female therapists or teachers or principals. They need their father. They need him to be intensely interested in them, disciplining immediately every single time, and modeling good midos of how we treat the women in our lives. They need his love, strength, time, presence, focused attention, and security. Most of all, your husband must protect you, not just by punishing but by emphasizing over and over, “we are men. We don’t hurt women. We love, cherish, and protect them. So don’t you dare hurt MY WIFE. She’s the most precious and important person in the world to me.”

Quit your jobs, move to the mountains, herd goats, grow hemp, but find some way for your husband to be in charge of their upbringing. Otherwise you are raising abusers and, by your own fawning behavior, demonstrating exactly how victims behave. They are getting older, taller, and stronger. They are not getting better.

I have to agree. I had a student like this once (in public school). The parenting dynamic and husband/wife dynamic was very much like what OP describes (I participated in many IEP meetings as well as regular parent conferences). The father did not stand up for his wife in front of us, and certainly not in front of their son. He modeled an attitude of disrespect to the female staff at our school, would speak down to us, even yell at the secretary if he was annoyed.The student would act and say similar things as you describe. He never threatened me violently but he had done so to his kindergarten and first grade teacher. He did physically threaten his mom and younger sister.
(Dad was on the spectrum as well. The irony of ironies was that mom worked as a behavior therapist in a private school, yet her son treated her like trash because of how dad set the dynamics.)
Anyway, by the time he got to the upper elementary grades, he was deliberately placed in a male teacher's class and his behavior improved so much. The dad was more respectful, also. I know the child saw an outside psychiatrist and he was on medication (though I don't know specifically what), you could tell it helped because the days he wasn't on the meds he was a whole different story then the days he was.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 10:59 am
OP, it sounds like you are a "single parent" with a checked-out DH.

If DH is on the spectrum, there is a very good chance that your kids are, too. They need to be evaluated by an ASD expert. Then you'll know exactly what therapies and possible medication will be appropriate.
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amother




Sienna
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 10:59 am
I know someone (husband is actually a great hands on father) who's son was having issues in school and she said it made a huge difference when he got a male teacher.

also, in terms of your father stepping in and teaching your children to respect you I have my concerns. My father died when I was little and my grandfather lived near by. I know he probably was trying to"raise" us to be mensches but it didn't work.

A father figure is a unique role. Would your husband be willing to go to therapy?
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sequoia




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 11:03 am
Concerns are all very well, but the safety of OP and her baby daughter is paramount.
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amother




Pink
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 11:14 am
Agree. and the older the boys get, with continuing this type of behavior the more reinforced it will be and the harder to undo.
If things don't improve, imagine them as physically strong teenagers. A grandfather trying to step in will not suffice.
A competent child psychiatrist is the way to go. They've seen it all, you don't need to be embarrassed in front of them.
Btw, the student I describe was diagnosed as being on the spectrum. He wasn't diagnosed as odd but probably was as well. It was very complex and psychiatrist said he probably wouldn't be completely diagnosed until he was a teenager because some diagnoses just aren't done before a certain age.
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amother




Sienna
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 7:39 pm
I agree with previous poster about teenage boys being too strong for a grandparent to be enough.

I recently saw this free workshop being advertised. Not sure if it'll be any help but...
https://hiddendifferences.lpag.....shop/
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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Sun, Mar 01 2020, 8:03 pm
bigsis144 wrote:
Re: PANDAS, I have not yet had him evaluated for that. None of the pediatricians or mental heath professionals I’ve met with have suggested checking for it (I know it is a somewhat controversial topic)
- not a sudden onset thing
- no episodic/macro swings in behavior/mood
- no tics/OCD behaviors
- he has been on antibiotics numerous times, for various reasons (after strep, after getting stitches, etc)

Don't wait for a pediatrician or mental health expert to bring this up. They don't know enough about it to recognize it. It doesn't matter if there wasn't a sudden onset. ODD can be considered a type of ocd, it's a compulsion to say no/do the opposite/be mean/be violent etc. Upthread we discussed your son's inability to admit that he's wrong, that part of the odd-ocd too. I'm not sure what you mean by that he's been on antibiotics numerous times, but if you mean that you didn't see any improvement while on antibiotics, I wouldn't necessarily see that as proof of anything. It may have been way too short a course for something that has become chronic. It also doesn't have to be strep. It could be a viral trigger or maybe even lyme or bartonella. Bartonella is notorious for rages.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....1570/
https://danielcameronmd.com/op.....ease/
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pizza4




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Mar 02 2020, 9:55 am
Hi bigsis144, no ideas or advice here, just lots of sympathy. It sounds like a LOT to deal with! Keep on being the wonderful mother you are, your obvious love and concern for your child although he seems to drive you insane is astounding. Go ahead and follow the wonderful advice of the imas here and remember to include his Father in heaven. Pray for him every day, and also take advantage of the upcoming purim day which is a special time of eis ratzon.
Lots of love and respect to you.
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bigsis144




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Mar 03 2020, 11:58 am
Just had my half-hour phone consultation with a highly recommended practice.

After describing the home situation, giving anecdotes of their verbal and physical violence... I got the recommendation for 1:1 parent coaching.


I’m JUST SO TIRED. I audibly choked up on the phone and told her they need help and it can’t just be me giving it to them. I am crying actual tears now, I don’t know how much more I can add to my mental load, even though in theory a “system reboot” (as developed during the sessions) for the family with boundaries and consequences and parental authority would be nice...

Everybody seems to be stuck on the fact that they can keep it together in school. That those clear expectations and routines keep them in line.
I’m hard enough on myself for not being some ultra-organized mother... I’m just so tired


Last edited by bigsis144 on Tue, Mar 03 2020, 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sebastian




 
 
 
 

Post  Tue, Mar 03 2020, 12:01 pm
moving near your parents is not an option right? You need HELP. Your kids are high maintenance it's NOT YOU
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