Help! I have no answer to question of bad language!?!

imasinger

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 8:29 pm

Here's how I might answer it, although the wording would depend in part on her age:

"You probably know that in general, it's not considered polite or tzniyus to talk about things that are private. That's why most words about those things are inappropriate. Certain words are always inappropriate. We call them swear words, and they have never been words that people who care about how they speak would ever say.

But sometimes, there's a need to talk about the private things, with certain people, in certain circumstances. Like if something isn't right, and you need to tell a parent or a doctor. For those times, we have words that are less rude, but still not meant for anything other than the time and place they are needed.

We don't say, "oh, excrement" when we're upset. But we might say, in a science class, that most life eats in some fashion, and excretes in some fashion.

In general, rules of polite society are not about the logic of the situation, but about how other people might feel. And most people are uncomfortable talking about private or less pleasant things. So, we avoid those topics when we can, and avoid the rude words all the time. Why certain words came to have the meaning they do, and not others, is a longer question, but it doesn't really matter, because in the end, we respect the unwritten rules even when we don't know every detail of the history of language development.

Does that answer your question?"

mamma llama

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 9:32 pm

imasinger wrote:

Wow. I think you phrased that perfectly.

amother

Ivory

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 10:25 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thank you Imasinger.
I think what she’s asking though (she’s 11 by the way) is why if one must talk about excrement... why is “#2” or “caca” or “poop” generally accepted as ok while “sh*t” and “cr@p” are definitely not? Why are those words any worse? Who decided this?

There really is no answer. That is just the way it is.

Ima4therecord

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 10:30 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It's a good question. I would validate that she is very logical and smart in her thinking, and she is right technically. The answer, though is technically language is just words and it's the way we communicate. However, because of the people around us and the culture, certain words come with an overall feeling and -I'm not sure the word- maybe connotation? and to be considerate to others we need to be mindful of that...and that may change in the future.

I looked it up, and common words we use everyday used to mean something else.

3. TERRIFIC
The root of terrific is terror, and it first meant terror-inducing. It then became an exaggerated intensifier (“terrifically good!” = so good it’s terrifying) and then a positive term all on its own.

7. SMART
Smart was first used in Old English to describe things that cause pain. Weapons, nails, and darts were smart. Shakespeare’s Henry VI has the phrase “as smart as lizards’ stings.” It took on connotations of sharpness, quickness, intensity, and, through smart, pain-causing words or wit came to stand for quick intelligence and fashionableness.

9. SAD
Sad started with the meaning of "satisfied or sated," also sometimes "steadfast" or "firm." It then went from meaning "serious," to "grave," to "sorrowful."

13. BULLY
Bully used to be a term of endearment for men or women. A bully could be a good friend or a sweetheart. It then came to stand for a swaggering braggart and than a coward who picks on others.

imasinger

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 10:40 pm

According to students of linguistics, many bad words in English came from Germanic, and were therefore relative newcomers, linguistically speaking.

Those words came to be viewed as the "profane" words. You can tell by the fact that they are used as negative exclamations that have nothing to do with their literal meaning.

(I wonder if it isn't a similar process that people might say, "pardon my French" after using bad language.)

The milder words don't always have that impact. You don't hear people getting upset and saying, "oh, #2". Interestingly, many of the less inflammatory terms come from Latin.

All this is really a side note, IMO. The straight answer to "why can't we just use whatever term we want" is "because that's the society rule", that some have come to be seen as not nice, and that this isn't something one should ignore just because it's illogical.

Last edited by imasinger on Thu, Mar 05 2020, 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 10:40 pm

Why the hugs? I don't have a little girl who is looking for permission to curse. She is just very linguistically curious. Her question is sensible and deserves a real answer.

Ima4therecord - I am going to share those changed meanings with her. I think she will be fascinated. She reads a lot and loves words - like I do - but she tends to be much more tenacious and curious than I was as a kid and I don't always know how to answer her best.

malki2

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 10:43 pm

Tell her that when we are talking about something bad, it’s nicer to refer to it by a different name. An example that she might understand is that instead of saying died, we say passed away. Because death is a very sad thing. So we do not want to refer to it directly. It makes it easier to talk about if we call it a nickname.

amother

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 10:44 pm

imasinger wrote:

For most kids, yes. I was fine with this as a child. This is a child who is challenges me. She has such a need to understand all things deeply. She is very bright, thinks fast, and I'm not always up to giving her the answers she needs.

Ima4therecord

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 10:54 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Glad that was helpful! That was me as a kid. I always asked questions....!

seeker

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 10:57 pm

I love your kid Smile

I'd say that words get their meaning from how society uses them. Because people use words like sh!t and cr@p in anger and other inappropriate contexts (as per imasinger's positively excellent treatment above) that's the kind of words they are. You probably don't want to bring up specifics unless she's already there, but for your own reference think of words like "screw" that were completely appropriate that got assigned inappropriate meanings (I hate when that happens. I don't like having to censor perfectly normal statements for possible double meanings. I teach young adolescents so this is a real deal). If she has ever read Frindle, this shouldn't be too hard to get. If not, she should definitely read Frindle, it's a really fun middle-school level novel about language.

cbsp

Thu, Mar 05 2020, 11:50 pm

imasinger wrote:

Completely off topic but this reminded me of A Wind in the Door where Calvin decides that "Fewmets!" (aka dragon droppings) makes a fine curse word.

Carry on...

FranticFrummie

Fri, Mar 06 2020, 9:38 am

OP, I love your daughter! A girl after my own heart.

My ex used to swear in Yiddish all the time. He said that Yiddish "doesn't count".

I think a lot of people think that if they swear in a language that isn't commonly used around them, then it somehow "sneaks by the censors."

Here's my favorite language tidbit for the day. You can tell a lot about a country by it's swear words. In Denmark, there is no derogatory word for woman. NONE. The closest you can get translates as "dear little one", and it's much more affectionate than it is condemning. Sure, a bit patronizing, but hardly something that would make you feel like you've just been badly insulted.

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Mar 06 2020, 9:45 am

Society decides. The same question can be asked how new words get into a dictionary. If a new word is used enough it will get added. If we decide the word "peanut" is a bad word and make a big deal about it then eventually peanut becomes a bad word.

Read Frindle to her. It's a great, clean book about how a word can get added to a dictionary. That may help explain how anyone can make a word and with enough peer pressure the word can become a bad word too.