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Who was Vashti in history?
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amother




Slategray
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:27 am
It says in Megillah that only besulos were taken to achashveirosh, why was Esther taken if she was married? (And if she wasn’t, why didn’t she get married as soon as she heard the decree?)
In those days, being a besulah was a major deal, not something minor and overlooked.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:31 am
That might have been the official policy but in reality if guards were swarming women's quarters and taking them in I am sure married wives got mixed in. Also, this wasn't a beauty contest like we were taught in preschool! Women were veiled in those days as well as little girls. A lot of it was probably just rounding up whoever seemed eligible, no arguing.
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amother




Maroon
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:32 am
If I'm not mistaken it says she was a besula when she got taken.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:33 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Maybe she wasn't ok with it but I don't think she had that many choices.
He was nice to the Jews.

I am also curious about this because lets say she didnt have a choice while Achashverosh was alive, a year after Nes Purim Achashversoh died so why couldn't she raise him Jewish from there on?

What happened to Esther after the Purim story? Did she remain in the palace forever? Did she live an openly jewish life? I’m sure she wasn’t free to raise her son, the next king, as she wanted to....Also, at what point was he born? The story of Purim took place over a number of years, did it not?
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:37 am
She stayed in the palace. Openly Jewish, probably not. But even before she told her origins, she and her maidservants ate only kosher ( a vegetarian diet) and kept Shabbos. So I'm sure she continued that sort of thing.
. Obviously her son was raised with some sort of feeling to the Jews since he was the one who gave permission for them to go back and rebuild the Bais Hamikdash.
Can't think of the history books offhand, but I'm sure Ken Spiro has a timeline in one of his books.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:38 am
amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:
She stayed in the palace. Openly Jewish, probably not. But even before she told her origins, she and her maidservants ate only kosher ( a vegetarian diet) and kept Shabbos. So I'm sure she continued that sort of thing.
. Obviously her son was raised with some sort of feeling to the Jews since he was the one who gave permission for them to go back and rebuild the Bais Hamikdash.

How do you know she stayed?
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:40 am
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
If I'm not mistaken it says she was a besula when she got taken.

A lot of these stories are midrash. Sometimes midrashim are contradictory.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:41 am
Ema of 4 wrote:
How do you know she stayed?

From the books I read. Try Ken Spiro, I think he may cover this. Also I think David Fohrman's The Queen You Thought You Knew, iirc.
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octopus




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:42 am
Maroon, posts like yours confuse me. If "stories" like these shake your belief, then investigate and question. Don't say it shakes your emuna. The Jewish way is to question and ask and research. Its laziness otherwise.

Esther sacrificed herself physically and spiritually for her people. Yes, her son was technically Jewish. But do you really think she was able to raise him as Jewish at court? Do you think her son considered himself Jewish? Esther knew it was the end of the line. She had no choices in the matter. The Purim story has lot of sad aspects even though ultimately, the Jewish people as a whole were saved. All those Jewish girls that were taken for achasveiroshs beauty contest were not returned to their homes. They were stuck in the harem for the rest of their lives. I thought there were some Jews who were killed in the outer provinces, where some persians couldn't wait to the right date to kill Jews.
As far as mordechai being married to Esther , this is not pshat. And you can technically be married in halacha, and be a besula if you have kedusin and no nissuin. Or the opposite, I forget which. But that's why tannaim are so problematic to break, because technically you are married. But still forbidden to one another.
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amother




Bronze
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 10:53 am
She was stuck in the palace for the rest of her life. Everyone in klal yisroel had a yeshua (which she sacrificed her life for) except for her. She knew she was giving up on a Jewish family and descendants.

Watch Rabbi Jacobson's purim shiurim from last year. There are 2 of them, I don't know which one speaks about this topic but it could be they overlap.
If I have a chance to watch them again, I'll post a link. He makes Purim real.
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leah233




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 11:48 am
Vashti was probably expunged from all official history after her murder.

Achashverosh probably had a lot more than one wife.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 11:59 am
Technically all the women in the harem were his wives or at least concubines. But most of them, he was with for just one night and he might never have requested to see them again. Esther was the one who found favor in his eyes, that's why he made her his official queen.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 12:01 pm
amother [ Slategray ] wrote:
It says in Megillah that only besulos were taken to achashveirosh, why was Esther taken if she was married? (And if she wasn’t, why didn’t she get married as soon as she heard the decree?)
In those days, being a besulah was a major deal, not something minor and overlooked.


True. I'm confused by this as well. There is one mekor though that says he took all the women not only besilos.
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amother




Sienna
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 12:02 pm
amother [ Bronze ] wrote:
She was stuck in the palace for the rest of her life. Everyone in klal yisroel had a yeshua (which she sacrificed her life for) except for her. She knew she was giving up on a Jewish family and descendants.

Watch Rabbi Jacobson's purim shiurim from last year. There are 2 of them, I don't know which one speaks about this topic but it could be they overlap.
If I have a chance to watch them again, I'll post a link. He makes Purim real.

Yes! Was gonna say this. I think it's in his shiur on Taanis Esther, why it's called Taanis Esther.
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amother




Sienna
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 12:12 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
True. I'm confused by this as well. There is one mekor though that says he took all the women not only besilos.

She was definitely not a besula. Originally the decree was to take only the besulos, but as time passed with no queen, they grabbed married women as well.

Just heard a fascinating shiur last night by Rabbi Jacobson. The passuk says that Achashveirosh loved her more than all the women מכל הנשים, and she found favor in his eyes מכל הבתולות.

The question is, which one was she? A woman or a besula?

The gemara answers that she had that quality of being able to be a woman if acheshveiroish wanted and a besula if he wanted.

Rabbi Jacobson explained that this means that she had a bit of mystery about her. He never felt like he "got" her. And the gemara is teaching a major lesson in shalom bayis here that a person should ways view there spouse with a bit of curiosity, and open mindedness. The second we think we have our spouse all figured out, our marriage is dead. Esther had a way of being like a newly married bride if that's what Achashveirish wanted- that's what is meant by she found favor in his eyes more than all the besulos.

Fascinatingly, The word mystery comes from the same root word as Esther. That was her essence, to keep herself fresh and new. This is also the idea behind the halachos of taharas hamishpacha.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 12:55 pm
You guys should really read The Queen You Thought You Knew. I'm sure it's available in any Judaica store this time of year!
It really is a fascinating read. A lot of the stuff being quoted here from Rabbi Jacobson is also covered in the book.
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trixx




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Mar 08 2020, 1:16 pm
We had this discussion already on another thread. "What would you have done"
I posted a lot of info there
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