Feel like they keep moving the goal posts

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:07 am

The American culture of "every man to himself" has never been more dangerous than it is now. The US has the worst outbreak in the world, the current death rate in NY is 1/1250 of the population! The final death count will be double what it is now in the best case scenario, equaling an incredibly tragic 1 death for every 625 people in the state.Instead of reviving your dormant sense of community and finding ways to continue saving lives while reaching out to those in vulnerable home situations, you talk about which lives are more worthy of being saved.

Your concerns are valid.

That is why governments around the world are:
Increasing funding to programs that are lifelines in situations of domestic abuse.
Creating telephone and online mental health support networks.
Providing financial help to businesses.
Providing rent and mortgage relief to individuals and businesses.
Increasing benefits to families with children.
and so much more.

We can get through this. You an get through this. May Hashem protect us all.

amother

Peach

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:08 am

The problem is that until there are enough tests to determine who HAS the virus and is infectious as well as who has HAD the virus and is *theoretically* immune and unable to infect others before they are symptomatic, there is no way to ease current social distancing rules.

The Federal government has done nothing to use its powers to coordinate ensuring that there are adequate tests; setting up systems so that people can be tested quickly. Testing requires both the actual physical tests as well as personnel to administer the tests.

States should not be left to compete amongst themselves for PPE and other medical supplies. This is exactly what the Federal government traditionally has done best - using its resources to coordinate nationally. At this point states literally have to pay more for critical supplies because they are competing against other states. The Federal government should ensure that no state is literally competing against another - prices should be established by a central purchasing agency and supplies distributed. This isn't rocket science - it's essential basic good government.

It's crazy that one's safety depends on living in a state which has a governor who listens to public health officials (NY, NJ, California) versus one where politics is more important than public health (Florida). I mean in what universe is wresting considered to be an essential service - only one in which the owner of World Wresting is a big donor to the Florida governor Banging head

Social distancing was meant to avoid the kind of medical catastrophes that occurred in Italy as well as in certain areas of New York City.

amother

Cyan

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:11 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I agree. I think we’ve developed tunnel vision that only coronavirus deaths are worth preventing. Not even counting that numerous hospitals are closing and lying people off because they aren’t doing elective procedures and don’t have revenue. What happens when someone who lives near one of those hospitals has a heart attack and would have been saved had the hospital been open?

I personally have a family friend who was waiting on a non-emergent heart procedure. They didn’t think if they waited anything bad would happen imminently. He dropped dead last week of a heart attack. Was his life not worth saving?

I think it’s incredibly silly to pretend like we’ll do anything to save one life or even tens of thousands of lives. We already don’t do that in society.

I'm really sorry for your loss. Of course his life was worth saving. Unfortunately, the decisions are not being based on no life being lost vs some lives being lost. The decisions are being made as to which steps lead to less lives being lost. No matter what steps we take, there will sadly be lives lost.

Apparently, all leaders have come to the conclusion that being quarantined will lead to less loss of lives. Neither you nor I know all the calculations that went into that decision, but our options are to choose between the laymen's expertise or the medical directors' expertise. I fail to see how going with the former makes us all safer.

There is nothing wrong with raising our concerns and asking for answers. But that shouldn't lead to defying the rules and making unilateral decisions.

amother

Oak

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:14 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think it speaks volumes about the political pressure countries are under to minimize the death no matter the cost.

I like to think our elected officials are working in our best interest, but the longer this goes on once we have flattened the curve, the more inclined I am to think that they’re terrified to open up because people will be furious when they see how bad the politicians let everything else get.

Why would people be furious? What sort of magic do you think people expect? We are not a bunch of two year olds. The average reasonable adult understands that in times of global crisis we do not emerge in the same condition we started.

I'm still trying to understand what your better plan is. Lay it out for us. How do we stem the virus without allowing it to rampage through our society, decimate hospitals, and cause an untold death toll, while keeping the economy and infrastructure intact?

amother

Wheat

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:14 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

No!

Because all of you dumb enough not scared of getting infected will put all the healthcare workers at risk and overload the healthcare system.

Because you weren’t “scared” enough to stay inside..

What do you know?

And then when you need help, you come running to hospitals..

You are 100 percent right . The people who think they're smarter or more brave that they just go out and dont follow social distancing rules should also agree not to go to the hospital if they do get sick . They cant have it both ways. Why should health care workers risk their health for someone that doesnt care about his own health ?

amother

Green

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:16 am

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

That's exactly why I feel we live in a Communistic society.

Why, if someone asks legitimate questions, does that automatically mean that this person is defying rules?

Are we no longer allowed to ask anything?

amother

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:18 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

The "obsession" with Corona is basic triage. Hospitals inundated with a dangerous pathogen are NOT safe places for people with other diseases in need of treatment to be in.

So yes, the "experts" realize that there are other sick people who need medical help too. Ironically, just entering a hospital puts them in mortal danger in this current crisis. Makes sense to aggressively focus on ridding us of this virus right?

So instead they should die of not getting medical care? I mean either they die of corona or they die of a heart attack but they’re just as dead. In fact you have a significantly higher likelihood of surviving coronavirus then you do of a heart attack. A heart attack gives you a 10% chance of death. Coronavirus at most gives you a 1% chance.

amother

Cyan

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:19 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

You are right that we shouldn't assume, and I apologize for doing that to you. It's just that the people defying the rules are using the very same logic to rationalize their behaviors.

But I fail to see how that applies to Communism.

amother

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:23 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

I think that we accept that a lot of people are going to die. It’s just the truth. Cuomo gets up there every day and gives a sob story about today x amount of people died. When else has he done that? Does he do that when 700 people die on a random day of any given cause? It perpetuates fear.

I then think we do our best to socially distance. The people who can work from home should. Restaurants should have limited capacity. Everyone should wear a mask. You should have to wash your hands when entering and exiting a store.

People keep saying this is war. Well in war we’re perfectly comfortable apparently with people dying considering we’ve been fighting in Afghanistan for almost 2 decades. So this is war too. People will die fighting for everyone’s right to live our lives.

amother

Cyan

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:31 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Now we are going beyond logic and heading into an emotional area. Cuomo is not trying to perpetuate fear. He gives us a daily press conference to update us on the status, what they government is trying to do at the moment, and letting us know that the pandemic is ongoing. If he wouldn't be announcing the numbers on a daily basis, how many more of us would be totally assuming that this virus is a non-issue by now and would start defying the rules? He is doing what he can to keep his state safe.

And please don't take this the wrong way. But I would so much rather listen to what the medical world thinks, than listen to what laymen amothers think. And I believe it would serve society much better too if everyone follows suit.

And yes, we are at war with an invisible enemy. Wars are won when solders work as a unit, and not each soldier deciding on strategy on an individual basis. And one also needs to keep in mind that you can win a battle, but lose the war.

Amarante

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:38 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

What in the world do rules regarding social distancing have to do with communism which is actually an economic system.

You can have tyrannical capitalist forms of government. I am not even sure any country is even really "communistic" at this point anyway - The means of production are not owned by the state in either Russia or China for the most part and certainly the workers and proletariat don't control the means of production nor the governments of those countries.

When someone makes statements which reveal that they have not a clue about what political/economic terms actually mean, it is difficult to take anything that person says seriously.

Last edited by Amarante on Fri, Apr 17 2020, 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Bisque

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 11:48 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Rabbi Leifer from Flatbush similar story. He had a heart condition but needed some procedure. In order for him to have this procedure he needed some test before to test if he can have this procedure. Well, cuz of coved19 this test was postponed till the unknown. He nebach passed away recently. Don't get me wrong, he was a very old man-in his 90's, and chances are that test would show he can't have the procedure and he would eventually he would pass on anyway, but to his kids he wasn't old enough and it's sad that because of this situation this is what happened.

amother

Green

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 12:01 pm

Amarante wrote:

What in the world do rules regarding social distancing have to do with communism which is actually an economic system.

You can have tyrannical capitalist forms of government. I am not even sure any country is even really "communistic" at this point anyway - The means of production are not owned by the state in either Russia or China for the most part and certainly the workers and proletariat don't control the mans of production nor the governments of those countries.

When someone makes statements which reveal that they have not a clue about what political/economic terms actually mean, it is difficult to take anything that person says seriously.

I didn't talk about obeying or not obeying the rules.

I meant that we can't have a normal discussion without being challenged that we are not obeying the rules!

For heavens sake! I'm in quarantine for 5 weeks. I'm obeying all the rules.

Now, am I allowed to discuss the logic behind the rules?

amother

Green

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 12:03 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

Not being able to discuss this or ask questions makes it feel like it's Communism.

Mama Bear

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 12:22 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

A person with a heart condition who contracts covid is unfortunately more likely to die.

amother

Oak

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 12:31 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Why would he get up and announce death rates randomly unless there was a specific threat being addressed? I keep hearing the same half-baked metaphors being used.... X # of people die in car crashes, etc. Are those issues not being addressed? Safety standards, seat belts, drunk driving laws, speed limits, etc? All dangers and threats are dealt with according to their specific parameters.

Some efforts don't work in small measures or through random voluntary efforts. How can social distancing "if you feel like it" be effective? Do we tell doctors in hospitals that they should wash their hands before surgery if they feel it's necessary, if their hands seem dirty, etc? That's probably a half-baked metaphor too, maybe somebody else can come up with a better one.

Amarante

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 1:17 pm

amother [ Green ] wrote:

Not being able to discuss this or ask questions makes it feel like it's Communism.

My point is that Communism is not a catch all phrase for governments which are tyrannical, despotic, authoritarian, plutocratic or whatever.

There are many forms of government which aren’t Communistic which are not democratic or republican.

If you feel that social distancing is a violation of your rights, then say so instead of stating that it is a form of communism. Singapore, for example is not Communistic but has extreme forms of social control imposed by the government even without the pandemic. Saudi Arabia is nit communistic but is not a democracy in which individual rights are protected.

Israel, USA, UK, Japan, western democracies have all imposed various forms of social distancing and none of them have forms of government remotely resembling communism.

And for what it’s worth, Marx would not recognize Russia or China as being Communist either.

ETA. And imamother is a private enterprise and nit a government nor are any imamothers government officials when they post here.

amother

Green

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 1:25 pm

Amarante wrote:

I'm not sure what you want.
I'll try to explain myself one more time and then I'll let it go.

I am upset that we don't get explanations as to why these rules are made.

If someone asks logical questions, not only on imamother, they are being shut down.

I'm tired.

amother

Cyan

Fri, Apr 17 2020, 1:32 pm

amother [ Green ] wrote:

I'm sorry, but this is factually incorrect. Explanations are being given here on a constant basis. But what I'm finding is that the posters refuse to accept the explanations if it's not along the lines they're wanting to hear.