Moving to EY with teenagers

Rappel

Sun, Apr 26 2020, 2:47 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

You need to conform to the schools here. It seems you will fit in with the Chareidi crowd more - but you will have to conform to a strict BY. There's not really modern BY here. The more modern schools wouldn't be black and hate would have their kids online..

But a black hat family would fit into a Torani school, no?

LovesHashem

Sun, Apr 26 2020, 3:30 pm

ukmom wrote:

What about a chordal school or modern Chareidi.

Chardal is also pro army and zionism. In addition to the fact those kids will have smartphones and not be blackhat so much.

In RBS you could probably find some schools that are more gracious Chareidi wise but you still will have to adjust your behavior a lot. There's a lot discouraged in the Chareidi world; going to college, getting a driver's license, wearing nail polish (even pinks and nudes).

You have to be willing to sacrifice for your kids chinuch

Rappel

Sun, Apr 26 2020, 3:39 pm

ukmom wrote:

What about a chordal school or modern Chareidi.

Chardal = Torani. I hear Anglos use the term Hardal more often, and Torani used by Israelis more often, but they amount to the same thing.

As for specific schools in RBS - again, I'm an ignoramus there. I can talk knowledgeably about many schools in the Binyamin/Shomron region, though. Is that relevant for you?

banana123

Sun, Apr 26 2020, 3:47 pm

Rappel wrote:

Probably because of what the word literally means.
https://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/426068

amother

Cyan

Sun, Apr 26 2020, 4:12 pm

Rappel wrote:

I hear plenty of Israelis using the term chardal. It is a tad derogatory though. I've never heard a chardal person characterize himself as such; he'll say Torani. Others, outside the community, will call such people chardal.

Torani is a far broader term than chardal. It can describe any number of more RW dati leumi communities, not necessarily so RW as to be chardal.

In any case, op, if you can't find a school with the same hashkafa as yours, I advise choosing one that is more liberal, rather than one that is stricter. It will be tough enough for your kids to get used to a new language and culture. Putting them is a stricter environment with stricter rules is not what they need. I would enroll them in a school that is less charedi, rather than more charedi, if those are your two choices.

I used to teach kids who dropped out of the charedi school system, and believe me, there are plenty (especially boys). Placing your kids in the strictest system doesn't mean they will be super machmir - it could very often mean they will rebel, especially if they are used to having more freedom.

amother

Cyan

Sun, Apr 26 2020, 4:56 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

We are talking about teens here, not toddlers. It's not the mom who will be sacrificing, it's the teens themselves, who were used to playing sports/watching movies/reading secular books or whatever, and will suddenly find themselves in an environment where all this is frowned upon.

Unless becoming more charedi is something your teens really really want, I would be very wary. EVEN if your teens declare they want to be more machmir in everything, take it with a grain of salt. They will live it for a month or two and may discover it's way too drab and restrictive for them, and then where will you be?

amother

Cyan

Sun, Apr 26 2020, 5:07 pm

ukmom wrote:

What about a chordal school or modern Chareidi.

I don't know much about modern charedi schools. I don't know if they exist yet. I know that a huge segment of the population is veering toward modern charedi - there are professional charedim that do attend university, etc. But I don't know if they have their own schools yet.

There is no 'chardal' school because as I mentioned earlier, people often don't like to characterize themselves as chardal, they will say Torani (though it's not quite the same thing). Anyway, in almost any city you have 'chardal' type schooling options. For elementary, either there will be a Torani class in the regular dati leumi school, or there will be a separate Noam school (which is a chardal-like semi-private school system).
For junior and senior high school, you have ulpanot and yeshivot which are 'chardal' type. Some cities have local options; in others you might need to consider dorms.

I know chardal is not the same as modern charedi. There are quite a few differences. However, it might be a better option than sending your kids to a more restrictive school.

amother

Cyan

Sun, Apr 26 2020, 5:40 pm

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

I live in rbs
you know what I see often?
lots of anglo kids who went off the derech because they thought it would be ok to go from chareidi american/English to charedi israeli. Huge risk and very often people have deep regrets and then its too late. The % is HUGE. Ask any chinuch expert here and they will tell you the truth.
I beg you at this point.
wait till your kids are married and then come.

If she waits till her kids are married and then comes, there is a big likelihood she will be here alone. (Of course sometimes all the marrieds do follow their parents eventually - but not usually).

If she wants to establish her family here, with the hopes that most or all of her kids will raise their own families here, then she needs to move now.

That said, amother lilac, you say you live in RBS. AFAIK, that's a charedi enclave. I agree with you that it's hard to move from American haredi to Israeli haredi.
I wouldn't move straight to RBS if my kids were used to a more modern lifestyle. I would move to a mixed city, with a heterogeneous population, like Rechovot or Petach Tikva or even Jerusalem. Or even more 'modern' places like Modiin, Ra'anana, etc.

amother

Smokey

Sun, Apr 26 2020, 6:12 pm

ukmom wrote:

Agreed! That’s why I’m trying to find the right one!!

But as long as you are frum there is no right one. It’s all basically the same. I mean it’s not responsible to move teens from a European country to the middl east. And yes israel with its European citizens is the Middle East. It’s too much change. It’s a tough mentality. Let them finish growing up normally. It’s not fair. You have a fantasy but you can’t have it now.

LovesHashem

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 3:10 am

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

That's true. But also the parents need to sacrifice. If the parents are still watching sports/movies/reading secular books or wtvr and the kids are told in school not to it will really confuse them.

There's many points I can make on this topic, you made another one.

amother

Lilac

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 3:11 am

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

RBS aleph is not a charedi enclave. its actually a huge mix of modern and charedi and a lot of others. from all places. I have lived here for 17 years,.
I see what goes on. people get bad advice and didn't realize what they were getting into. people make it sound so rosy. oh you can go to magen avot and then what? they have a super hard time getting into any high school and the kids get really messed up. they are not Israeli but not american anymore either so they don't fit in anywhere and start falling through the cracks.
chinuch experts here say that if you want your kids to stay in any way yeshivish and fit in with the culture the oldest is 8 or 9 MAX.
I see the fallout. just go to ayalon park on any friday night and see for yourself what can happen.

banana123

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 3:20 am

You know, ukmom and her family can come here for a sabbatical year and see how it works out. And if they see it is really not working out, they can go back. If they see it is, they can make aliya from within Israel.

It's not ideal from a Zionist perspective but it would solve most of the problems everyone is talking about, IMO.

I really don't see the need for the high tensions. It's true that there are risks involved in making aliya. It's true that some kids don't take aliya well. It's true that there is a high possibility of culture shock, and that a lot of families don't make it. It's true that she needs to find the right school and right community, come in with appropriate expectations and her eyes wide open.

But it doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. There IS an option to see how you are doing here before completely cutting ties to your home country.

amother

Cyan

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 3:36 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

chinuch experts here say that if you want your kids to stay in any way yeshivish and fit in with the culture the oldest is 8 or 9 MAX.

That's because 'yeshivish' doesn't exist here, at least not in a community wide way.
If you decide to raise your kids in Israel, then they are probably not going to end up very yeshivish. (they will always retain some roots from home, but the new community they will belong to in Israel will not be yeshivish).