Moving to EY with teenagers

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 4:54 am

Rappel wrote:

You know, just from reading this thread, if I ever did want to move into a more haredi or Anglo environment, I wouldn't. Y'all make it sound horrid.

And I think people here should give ukmom a little more credit. She's an adult, an experienced mother, she has her act together, and she is making her decisions in an educated fashion. She needs facts, not smoke and stories. Please respect her choices!

I think you might have misunderstood what people are saying the exact problem is. The problem with Haredi-Anglo aliyah is NOT the Haredi Anglo environment. Nor is it the Haredi Anglos or the Haredi Anglo schools. Rather, the problem IS being Haredi Anglo within the global Haredi Israeli environment. Whether you are "modern" or "staunch" Haredi, the fact is culturally you are VERY different from your Anglo Haredi peers.

It's very difficult to be Yeshivish in Israel, when essentially that doesn't exist outside of the chutznik yeshivah/kollel system. It's very difficult to behave the way Anglo Haredim are expected to behave when Israelis behave differently. And hardest for pre-teens and teenagers is dealing with both the new rules and social norms they'll experience in Israel. Keeping teenagers in an Anglo bubble is usually asking them to grow up isolated from the vast majority of their Israeli peers. There are exceptional cases, but the general rule is that Anglo pre-teens are too Anglo to fit into Israel and after a few years in Israel, become too Israeli to to fit back home without major mentality and behavioural adjustments.

In Israel life revolves around being in a group. People will judge you based upon which group you're in. The people at your childrens' schools will expect you to be like them, in ways it's difficult to imagine from the outside. If you don't 'fit in,' you'll never really belong. Eventually those who identify themselves as secular, Dati and Torani must also learn how to fit the mould of their respective societies, if they and more so their children are to be successful in Israel.

There are many benefits of aliyah. And the amazing Anglo Haredi community is one of them. But people need to understand before they make such a major financial and lifestyle commitment, that there are serious risks, the most obvious and likely being at least one child develops major issues and eventually leaves Yiddishkeit. And the scary thing is, you can often see the issues developing in young kids, years before the adolescent actually decides to leave Yiddishkeit or G-d forbid develops an addiction issue. This tragic outcome can develop and play out anywhere, but the particular way and frequency with which these things occur within the Haredi Anglo community is alarming.

amother

Lilac

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 4:59 am

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

I think you nailed it.
I really like my life and living here.
My children grew up like this from gan age. I even sent them to Israeli babysitters. This is what they are used to and their culture. and as a side note I think they are STILL known as more american
it is just totally different then out of Israel.

amother

Taupe

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 6:02 am

Chatam in rechovot would be a perfect fit if your kids were younger. Rav stein has tried hard to provide an American yeshivish community in a predominantly Israeli area. Eitz chaim chader and eitz chaim bnot are more open charadi options and the young Anglo community is growing. (these schools are still mostly Israeli). However, as of now there are no good high school options. The beis yakov high school in rechovot do bagrut and bc it's I the only beis yakov high school it is less exclusive than high schools in other areas. However, it's still charadi and so has many of the standard rules. The problem you would have is that there are very few Anglo kids of teenage age so they would be the only Anglos in their grade. Charadi boys who are high school age go to yeshiva katana, a far cry from what your kids are used to in England. Or, you could send to yishuv or maarava where they do bagrut but are charadi (lighter). But these schools are a shlep from rechovot. No good public transport from rechovot to RBS. So, if you want your older kids to live at home and have friends you need to be in RBS. But that does carry its own risks as people have mentioned.

amother

Puce

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 6:05 am

I have to say that reading this thread is very disheartening.

It sounds like many of you like the idea of Israel theoretically, as long as it's the same as the country you're leaving behind. You like Israel, but not Israelis. You're charedi, but American charedi, not the ultra-extreme Israeli charedi. Maybe you would be considered Torani here, but then OMG you might be considered Zionist. You might have to feel pride (or shame) in what the modern Israel has accomplished, and worst of all, your sons might have to go into the army.

It doesn't matter if you're charedi or MO or JPF if you come here planning to stay in your chutz l'aretz box, your aliya has very little chance of succeeding. You will be frustrated and as a result, so will your children. How can you succeed if you feel everything is "off"? It's not "off", it's different, much better in many ways, less good in others. But you have to take the whole package. In our case, it was the best and most important decision we ever made.

We made Aliya with every intention of raising our children to be Israelis, and they are. B"H none of them (or their children) are OTD. I can only thank Hashem for giving us the wisdom to know where we belong and how to differentiate between important and less important.

salt

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 6:40 am

ukmom wrote:

Taupe, I would only send my boys to yeshiva katana here as well, wouldn’t send them to regular high school. Maybe I’m coming across more modern than I am! What is so extreme about the Israeli Beis Yaakov’s? Chatam is one of the places I’m looking at for my younger kids, what’s the equivelent girls high school?

You wrote, a few pages earlier:

ukmom wrote:

By chutznick standards we are very Chareidi, but I think the Israeli Chareidim are too to the right wing (religiously) for us.

So what do you mean by Israeli Chareidim being too to the right?
To me, it sounds like you'd fit fine in a regular Israeli Chareidi environment (if you prefer Anglo so Anglo).
There's a lot more variety than people think. My kids are in regular chareidi beis yaakov and yeshivot, and there are all sorts. Internet, no internet, latest fashion, out of fashion, long skirts short skirts, secular books, jewish books. I find there is much more leeway that people are leading you to believe here.

Elfrida

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 6:55 am

ukmom wrote:

Also I don’t see the problem with a school being “less exclusive” I’m not looking for exclusivity I’m looking for inclusiveness and a decent chinch!! I’m honestly more confused now than I was when I started this post!!😞

That's why the advice would be to take your time, do a pilot trip to get a sense of things and see where you fit in. But this is a time when it is impossible to travel, and everyone is throwing out their own opinions without being able to assess exactly where you are coming from. Especially since most people giving an opinion here are American rather than English, and their starting point in chutz l'aretz wasnt the same as yours.

There is no way anyone can make this decision for you. You mentioned earlier that you had family in Israel, so they must know what kind of school you are looking for. Can they give you any more focused advice than we can?

You also mentioned that you wouldn't want to live where they were (or something similar - sorry, I didn't reread the thread to find it). This could be delicate, but could you tell us what you want to avoid in their lifestyle/school choices? That might help us get a better idea.

Realistically, if you really want to come this summer, you'll probably have to apply to a number of schools and go to whichever has room. And that's assuming there will be flights this summer.

amother

Taupe

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 7:04 am

By exclusive I meant this as a good thing. They don't look at your yichus to decide if you're accepted like beis yakov in Jerusalem might. If you send your kids to yeshiva ketana in England then Israeli charadi may be ok for you. The question is how old exactly your kids are and how good their ivrit is. If they don't know ivrit then it would seem you would need to be in an Anglo environment so schools will cater for your kids needs. The only way to really get an understanding is to come on a pilot trip and spend time in each area talking to people and visiting schools.

amother

Seafoam

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 7:11 am

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Are you familiar with Chabad communities/educational options around Jerusalem?

I'm from the merkaz but when we were thinking of moving we looked into communities there. In terms of communities, there's Ramat Shlomo (I found it quite expensive and not so many apartments available to rent and less available to buy) and Gilo (quite meshichistic, depends if that's your cup of tea). There's no one 'chabad' community in central Jerusalem (even shikun chabad is 'mixed') and the rest are batei chabad but for kiruv, not with chassidim. There are some great chabad options not too far from Jerusalem. If employment wasn't an issue, I'd have considered Beitar Illit. Close to Jerusalem and you can get a lot more for your money.

chanchy123

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 7:31 am

ukmom wrote:

I haven read all the posts in this thread, my friends are Israeli “American-chareidi” they send their DD to Lustig high school and son to Yeshivat Hayishuv Hachadash.
As an aside - is any poster here is considering to integrate into the Torani DL society- there are plenty DL Yeshivot Ktanot as well.

amother

Sapphire

Mon, Apr 27 2020, 7:52 am

What about Romema, Jerusalem? It's very Anglo, more British than American. Ganim are in Hebrew and English, shopkeepers will talk to you in English, and you are as likely to hear English as Hebrew or Yiddish in the streets.
I know that Bnos Hadassah is a popular choice for girls. It's English and Yiddish rather than Hebrew speaking. I've also seen ads for its high school (forgot the name).
There are many young couples who move back after a few years but also many families who have been here for ages.
My impression is that most men are learning or in learning-related professions.
There are many English chasidim but litvish, too. Not sure if this is relevant. Just figured I'd put it on your radar if it isn't already.
Edit: Housing is expensive. Not sure if that's an issue.
Due to the number of Anglos in the community, I find it hard to believe that kids would be bullied for being Anglo. I've heard kids walking down the street speaking English.

4Sisters

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 7:20 am

Hi UK Mom--If your older kids are girls, I suggest you contact the two high schools that sound like they would be the best fit for your family: Peninei Chen or Ko Tomar. You can get their info at Shemesh.co.il, the local phone book/website (fascinating to just look around on there, and there is an option for English).

The local city liasion with the English-speaking community is Tami Elmaliach
olimhelp@gmail.com. When we came on a pilot trip, she offered to give us a tour around (not sure if that still happens given coronavirus....).

Whatever your decide, just know that there are/will be others in your situation. Organizations may suggest/strongly deter coming with teens, but lots of people do it. Hatzlacha!

amother

Brunette

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 10:03 am

amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:

Thanks!

I'm not so much looking for a community as I am for a school/schools, and then can figure out where to live that is not too far away.

I'm definitely not looking for hyper-meshichist! (My understanding is that Chabad institutions in general in Israel are more meshichist than their counterparts in the US... Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

When you say "if employment wasn't an issue..." Couldn't it work to have a job in Jerusalem and schooling/home in Beitar? Would the commute be too much? Or are you referring to the difficulty of finding a job in Jerusalem?

What are some of the other Chabad options not far from Jerusalem?

What are the schools IN Jerusalem like?

I hope you don't mind my many questions... Thanks very much for taking the time to answer!