Moving to EY with teenagers

amother

Orchid

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 4:53 am

To all you americans, just to clarify- English schooling is very different to your system. High school is from 11-16 and there is no graduation as such, just exams in specific subjects (GCSEs), choice depending. These can technically be done at any age but are usually 14-16. Some/many will stay for 6th form/college-16-18yo and do a-levels, again only in specific subjects. Boys will graduate high school usually at 15 and go to yeshiva after.
Op, I'm sure you have your reasons and it's been thought through. I hope you have a rav you've spoken to and had da'as torah that this is what you should be doing.
I think consider the personalities of your teens-are they strong natured boys/girls who will be able to be confident standing up for themselves etc. Israeli society is very tough.
I know a family that made aliyah-children aged 18-0. They went to ramat beit shemesh for a few years before they ended up moving back as it wasn't working out for them.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 4:55 am

ukmom wrote:

Thank you!! We have been deliberating over aliya for years, but was worried about kids adjusting. It is my kids enthusiasm that is now making us reconsider. They are all extremely sociable and confident and have never had problem making friends. we Have siblings in Israel but not interested in moving to either of their communities, though will def be a huge help having them nearby. By chutznick standards we are very Chareidi, but I think the Israeli Chareidim are too to the right wing (religiously) for us. Been thinking Ramat Beit Shemesh, but there seems to be many different communities there, would love some clarification of differences between varying communities in rbs.

just realize that even social kids will have a learning curve because of the language barrier.
Rbs us a great place for anglo charedi/yeshivish families.
Just know that there is an unfortunately a sad phenomenon there of olim families with tweens and teens hoing off the derech after aliyah. Obviously this does not happen to all olim families, but it does happen quite a bit. Just a thought.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 5:30 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I think its being thrown into such a different culture with so nsny new changed that its just too much for some.
We have friends that came from SA with young kids, oldest was 10 I believe. Today, msny years later, only one is still frum. The other kids all left frumkeit. It was a big culture change and they just couldnt take it.

Many moons ago, when I made aliya, I noted in one of the guides that kids over 9 are considered high risk for unsuccessful aliya and becoming dropouts, on the streets, etc.

I think part of it is that Israeli ideas of frumkeit are just so different. For instance the chezkat kashrut that you'd give a non-frum relative who says she keeps kosher and who bought chalav Yisrael for you, so you eat at her house - in chutz laaretz you would not be looked at askew for doing that. But here many people say of course you can't do that.

In chutz laaretz you can be a good charedi man and still not learn in kollel for 10 years. Here in Israel kollel is a must or you are sug gimmel.

In certain communities in chutz laaretz men can get a high school diploma and people just shrug, it's normal. Here, only the miskein bochurim get a high school diploma.

And so on. It's like everything is more extreme here. Because there are more options, people have the luxury of being very picky and refusing to moderate.

Like in chutz laaretz what is most important to most affiliated Jews (no matter what they define as) is that their children marry Jewish. Everything else you can swallow even if it's not your first choice.

Here many Ashkenazim don't want their children marrying Sefardim (or even someone with a single Sefardi grandparent) and in some Sefardic communities marrying an Ashkenazi is also looked down upon. Because the vast majority of the marriage candidates are Jewish, we feel we can be picky and insist on the "right" kind of Jew.

So coming from an American-charedi upbringing and finding yourself in a place that seems so judgy and divisive, while those people are still being religious, it really makes sense that it turns many people off. If that's not how you see the world, how can you associate with people who call themselves religious yet refuse to associate with other Jews? There was a story a while ago about a Satmar chassid who bought pizza for IDF soldiers. My jaw dropped because that is not a believable story at all. And then it said the Satmar chassidim were visiting from the US. Oh, THAT makes sense. That US Satmar chassidim would buy IDF soldiers pizza. Israeli Satmar chassidim? Moshiach must've come if that happened.

And then you have just the stupid divisive illogical hatred that Tel Aviv has for Bnei Brak and vice versa. It is really off-putting if you're not ready for it and don't know how to handle it.

Beit Shemesh in all honesty is a great place for Anglo charedim but on the other hand it is also a place full of divisions, not within the neighborhoods necessarily but within the city as a whole, there is a lot of ugliness between the secular population and the charedim. So if this truly is the issue then Beit Shemesh would likely only exacerbate it.

There are areas with less divisions but they may not be as Anglo as you need. Ra'anana comes to mind, I think they have charedim also, they definitely meet the Anglo criteria and from what I've heard is more united than Beit Shemesh and Jerusalem. But they are also very expensive and not a "central" charedi area. Where I live people are more accepting and less divisive but the Anglo community is nonexistent.

I love Israel, I am very Zionist, I don't want to live anywhere else, I am grateful every day that I live here. I hate to post bad stuff about Israel, usually I avoid it,truly I do, but maybe in this case it will shed light on some important points.

Native Israelis are called tzabarim for a reason. Tzabar is a prickly cactus that is soft on the inside. But you need to accept the outside prickliness first.

Rappel

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 6:08 am

ukmom wrote:

I have friends in RBS whom could probably give you more information about the current communities there. Would you like me to put you in touch? Unfortunately, my personal knowledge of RBS is next to none Hiding

I skipped the Anglo road in my Aliyah, and I never yet got a chance to fill in the blanks.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 6:19 am

Rappel wrote:

Coffee, I've heard of stories like you're telling, but I've never seen it - and I think the Ashkie-Sephardi thing is a stereotypic myth. I've also never had an inside view of Israeli haredi society, so maybe that's the difference.

But among Dati Leumi and Anglo haredi communities, I haven't encountered the social divisions that you're describing. Are you sure what you're describing is accurate? If so, how would you recommend that a haredi family with teens avoid those potholes?

I wish. I have friends who were only allowed to date those of certain ethnicities. Sad

And, that's not just charedi. One of those friends is BT, parents non-religious. It's an Israeli thing, thankfully becoming less common but still exists.

DL and Anglo charedi communities do seem to be more open. I meant that if someone makes aliya and is exposed to too much of the Israeli "extremism" (such as in schools, where not everyone is Anglo) that might be a turn-off, and more so if they live in an area where the sectors clash on a regular basis.

I would recommend that the family search for a community that is more accepting and united. I find that areas where secular and religious families live together, meaning it's very common to find them neighbors in the same building, and no effort is made to self-segregate, there is more acceptance and less judgment, and naturally people are less extreme.

Areas where you have entire buildings and streets with only a certain type of families, I think are more likely to judge the "other."

But that is my personal theory, I don't know if it's really true.

And like I said, she may have to choose between integrated communities that are softer and less extreme, and an Anglo community where klita might be easier. I don't know if there is a place that has both....maybe the unicorn exists, maybe not.

amother

Gray

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 7:10 am

Rappel wrote:

Rappel, I'm charedi and a gioret. Live in one of the strongholds of the Charedi world in EY.
I am Ashkenazi, Litvish and remarried to a divorcee who is FFB and Ashkenazi, lived in Givataim during childhood and later in life in Jerusalem and NY.

In the charedi circles in EY nobody who is Ashkenzi FFB and getting married the first time will not marry someone from Edot Hamizrach. Not in a zillion years. A shadchan suggesting such a thing will get his head bitten off.

I can't speak for Edot Hamizrach but I guess they will find it very strange. It will be this way of thinking: if the bachur or bachura ashkenazi is willing to consider somebody not ashkenazi there will have to be something wrong or off since prospect couldn't or didn't get married within his own circles. IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING FISHY!

Exception: BT and gerim and people getting married for the 2nd time, it will be acceptable by all standards.

So no, it is not a myth.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 7:15 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

Reminds me of someone I knew years ago, who was divorced. Ashkenazi. Charedi. Top everything except divorced, she'd been married for a few months.

She remarried someone who had been married for a year or two before he divorced. Teimani (I think). Excellent person but like her divorced, plus he was Sefardi.

She joked that the two of them were meant to be, and they had to be married for a short time before, because no one would ever have suggested such a match for a first marriage. When I asked why she just said, he's Sefardi and many people consider that second-class. I was shocked, it was the first time (of too many) that I'd heard of such a thing.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 7:26 am

ukmom wrote:

By chutznick standards we are very Chareidi, but I think the Israeli Chareidim are too to the right wing (religiously) for us. Been thinking Ramat Beit Shemesh, but there seems to be many different communities there, would love some clarification of differences between varying communities in rbs.

It is great that you have this self- awareness. It's important to think about this when choosing schools.

We came with teens who are now wonderful, frum, well-adjusted adults, but we're not charedi and so there wasn't as much of a culture shock. Not to say that it was super smooth, but the religious part of things was pretty much what the kids were used to.

By the way, a lot of this thread comes off as Israel bashing, which is unfair. If a British family with teens moved to France and faced language and culture differences, they would also have a hard time.

Rappel

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 7:32 am

Well, I'm learning a lot right now. Thank you, all. Do you think that there is any change on the horizon for such social divisions?

Just to share: in my town, it's enough of an opposite story to be funny in comparison. Lipshitz and Kaplan, the wives are Morrocan. Goldin is married to a Teimaniya. Hakian and Shushan and Alkasalasi and Sayag, the wives were Ashkenazi.

My Teimani friend goes on and on about how Teimanim and Americans were meant to be together. LOL

Recently, her sister married another Teimani, and the family was actually really excited, because it was the first "real Teimani" wedding they had been able to make! (I think 8/12 of the kids are married already.) There are enough kids here with both dark golden skin and blondish hair that I often say it's the Itamar trademark breed.

It's not something I ever thought about. Now I'm appreciating it.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 7:35 am

Rappel wrote:

I think change is happening slowly, yes. Maybe not in charedi circles but in all other Israeli circles. Charedi circles it may happen in the future, but the community tends to change more slowly than other communities.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 7:42 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

This is true and I did not mean it as Israel-bashing but rather to raise awareness of the cultural differences. Like I said I love Israel and I usually don't post anything that might come off as Israel-bashing. We have enough of that from our enemies, we don't need more.

I think a lot of people don't appreciate how different various cultures are. For instance a move from the US to Canada or the reverse is not a major culture difference, and maybe not even from one of those countries to England.

Most people who move stay within their culture. And because so many places have a variety of ethnic groups, residents don't realize that those groups are influenced by their surroundings and not full representative of their "home" cultures. So for instance someone living in New York who is friends with many American Japanese and gets along well with them and likes their culture (what they kept of it in the US) might think s/he will do well in Japan as well. Until s/he moves to Japan, and then realizes that the culture is not at all similar and while Japanese are very nice people, the culture is too different and the move is not working.

amother

Gray

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 7:53 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

There is another side of the coin. Cultural differences. I was married to Edot Mamizrach in my 1st marriage and not yet properly converted. It was not a short marriage. Boy, the cultural differences are HUGE. I come from lower middle-class European upbringing, mother was a nurse, I was the only child. A home where education and books are highly valued. Strict table manners. Mother was kind of a lite feminist.

He: family with 8 kids, the youngest and mothers favourite boy. Spoiled rotten. No man in the family didn't lift a finger in the kitchen. A family with very different values than mine in almost everything. It was totally accepted that women do all the house work. The men make all the decisions.
They were not evil but the culture clash is extreme.