Moving to EY with teenagers

amother

Seafoam

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 8:07 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

There is another side of the coin. Cultural differences. I was married to Edot Mamizrach in my 1st marriage and not yet properly converted. It was not a short marriage. Boy, the cultural differences are HUGE. I come from lower middle-class European upbringing, mother was a nurse, I was the only child. A home where education and books are highly valued. Strict table manners. Mother was kind of a lite feminist.

He: family with 8 kids, the youngest and mothers favourite boy. Spoiled rotten. No man in the family didn't lift a finger in the kitchen. A family with very different values than mine in almost everything. It was totally accepted that women do all the house work. The men make all the decisions.
They were not evil but the culture clash is extreme.

I agree that the cultural differences can be a huge shock. I don't like to generalize, but it's hard to deny that certain backgrounds sometimes mean certain mindsets which can be difficult to harmonize. It may be unpopular to say, but I don't necessarily think that everyone 'needs' to marry into other edot. I think there's a lot to be said for upholding family minhagim and masoros and while nobody "knows what they're getting themselves in for" when they marry, there's more chance you'll find common ground with someone from a similar eida.

On topic to OP, RBS sounds ideal for you. And I'm glad you already know Hebrew, because for many that's the greatest stumbling block. When I made aliyah I didn't fit the mold of 'Israeli haredi' but it's also possible to adapt and sometimes necessary to find where you're willing to compromise to fit in better. For example, I did a huge wardrobe overhaul when I moved, as in literally I have only a few items of clothing from my aliyah which I still wear. 'American style' haredi exists and it's possible to find such communities all over (also in Rehovot, if you're looking for alternatives to RBS) but just putting it out there that people often move right or left after they make aliyah.

mochamix18

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 8:19 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Many moons ago, when I made aliya, I noted in one of the guides that kids over 9 are considered high risk for unsuccessful aliya and becoming dropouts, on the streets, etc.

I think part of it is that Israeli ideas of frumkeit are just so different. For instance the chezkat kashrut that you'd give a non-frum relative who says she keeps kosher and who bought chalav Yisrael for you, so you eat at her house - in chutz laaretz you would not be looked at askew for doing that. But here many people say of course you can't do that.

In chutz laaretz you can be a good charedi man and still not learn in kollel for 10 years. Here in Israel kollel is a must or you are sug gimmel.

In certain communities in chutz laaretz men can get a high school diploma and people just shrug, it's normal. Here, only the miskein bochurim get a high school diploma.

And so on. It's like everything is more extreme here. Because there are more options, people have the luxury of being very picky and refusing to moderate.

Like in chutz laaretz what is most important to most affiliated Jews (no matter what they define as) is that their children marry Jewish. Everything else you can swallow even if it's not your first choice.

Here many Ashkenazim don't want their children marrying Sefardim (or even someone with a single Sefardi grandparent) and in some Sefardic communities marrying an Ashkenazi is also looked down upon. Because the vast majority of the marriage candidates are Jewish, we feel we can be picky and insist on the "right" kind of Jew.

So coming from an American-charedi upbringing and finding yourself in a place that seems so judgy and divisive, while those people are still being religious, it really makes sense that it turns many people off. If that's not how you see the world, how can you associate with people who call themselves religious yet refuse to associate with other Jews? There was a story a while ago about a Satmar chassid who bought pizza for IDF soldiers. My jaw dropped because that is not a believable story at all. And then it said the Satmar chassidim were visiting from the US. Oh, THAT makes sense. That US Satmar chassidim would buy IDF soldiers pizza. Israeli Satmar chassidim? Moshiach must've come if that happened.

And then you have just the stupid divisive illogical hatred that Tel Aviv has for Bnei Brak and vice versa. It is really off-putting if you're not ready for it and don't know how to handle it.

Beit Shemesh in all honesty is a great place for Anglo charedim but on the other hand it is also a place full of divisions, not within the neighborhoods necessarily but within the city as a whole, there is a lot of ugliness between the secular population and the charedim. So if this truly is the issue then Beit Shemesh would likely only exacerbate it.

There are areas with less divisions but they may not be as Anglo as you need. Ra'anana comes to mind, I think they have charedim also, they definitely meet the Anglo criteria and from what I've heard is more united than Beit Shemesh and Jerusalem. But they are also very expensive and not a "central" charedi area. Where I live people are more accepting and less divisive but the Anglo community is nonexistent.

I love Israel, I am very Zionist, I don't want to live anywhere else, I am grateful every day that I live here. I hate to post bad stuff about Israel, usually I avoid it,truly I do, but maybe in this case it will shed light on some important points.

Native Israelis are called tzabarim for a reason. Tzabar is a prickly cactus that is soft on the inside. But you need to accept the outside prickliness first.

I read this after I posted my comment, and you said everything I wanted to do well. It’s not speaking badly about Israel, it’s just fact and it’s good to be prepared for those cultural things that are tied into the hashkafa.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 8:48 am

banana123 wrote:

Israeli kids eat Anglo teachers alive, too. Yum yum!!

It's not aggression. They love each other. It's just elbows. No one is allowed to be a "fryer," you must always stand your ground.

Ha ha ha, funny joke, and such great advice- not! You show an inconsiderate reaction to real problems, like bullying, which destroys a child's childhood. Do you have any iota what it feels like for children to move abroad to some strange place, learn a new language, try to make friends and then to be physically beaten by their Israeli peers, because they are "friers" (I.e., nice and well behaved)? My 6 year old who lived in Israel since he was a toddler does. Despite perfect Hebrew and only knowing Israel as his home, he was still picked on, and often came home with bruises and literal cuts from the "nice" frum boys in his class. Or how about my 9 year old, who was tortured for her English accent and because she's "chutznik." Or how about my 3 year old who was hit, pushed and knocked over by the older boys at school, and was so terrified to go, he would cry in the mornings? Do you really expect small children to "stand their ground?" When people say that, what they usually mean is "tell your kids to be jerks right back." Not everyone wants to live in a dog-eat-dog world. Some people enjoy living like civilised metschen. Some people don't call bullying -which is abuse- love. And those people better think real hard before throwing their kids into the Israeli school system.

Baruch Hashem our kids had many friends and supportive peers in Israel. BUT, the bullying at Israeli schools is out of control, and OP should understand that her kids will get figuratively eaten alive by some Israeli kids. It will be 1, 2 or 3... but those few kids will make their lives miserable. And the Rebbes, Morahs or Menahel will do nothing to stop it.

After several years of living in Israel, and with children who speak better Hebrew than English, we left. We realised that so many Anglo teens who grew up in Israel are no longer frum or at best have serious psychological damage from the cookie-cutter and group-think mentality, in addition to the trauma their Israeli peers inflicted upon them. Of every family we know which made aliyah with kids- several of the kids moved back, and now the families are split up on different continents.

Our kids are much happier, have nicer friends and ironically more interested in Torah since we left, since it's not being taught in such a stressful environment.

Let's not whitewash the problems of the Israeli school system. It's really different socially than in the UK or USA, and OP is taking a very big social, educational and financial risk making aliyah.

amother

Gray

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 8:56 am

amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:

This.

Once somebody told me: an Ashkenazi husband with a Sfardi wife= Combination that could make a very good marriage

Ashkenazi wife and Sfardi husband= Combination if you want to end up in the Rabbanut filing for divorce. (the person said in more crude words but I refrain from such a language)

Awaiting the tomatoes...

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 9:05 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

You nailed it! This is 100% correct imo. I don't know how you managed to be so spot on, but as charedim from chutz l'aretz our family can attest to the complete accuracy of all you've written, including your explanations for why this is so. And at some point you get so fed up with the divisions and anger on every "side." There are so few of us Yidden, and more importantly we are all one family- why can't we just get along? But in Israel, you will not find that to the the predominant attitude, to put it mildly.

About moving to RBS, people must think very carefully. There's a clique problem in many of the girls schools. There's also an "OTD" issue as well, and I feel like nearly every anglo family in RBS has at least one struggling, very defiant teenager. In J'lem there are major issues getting your kids into school if they are older than kita alef. Actually it's laughable to think you can get your kids into a good charedi school in J'lem post-kita alef, unless you have some serious pull (like an important Rov intervenes for you). Be sure you have schools before moving!

amother

Smokey

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 10:49 am

ukmom wrote:

Thanks so much for all replies. My oldest is girl, we are in U.K. and she will be finished school and go straight to sem as planned. All kids are very eager to move, I and my dh both speak good Hebrew. Am most worried about 14 and 13 yr olds adjusting in school, would like an Anglo community for easier social adjustment for them which is why I originally asked for advice on communities!!

The children are eager to move and you said in another post that they are very confident. Both points are not definite at all. They are eager for something they don’t know. They are naive European and can’t imagine the shear chutzpah and cruelty they are going to meet in israel. Second you said that they are confident. At this age their personality can still be changed and crushed. Nobody is that strong at this age. I’m sorry to tell you. I’m israrli that moved to the Us after I got married. I prefer israel because I’m used to the mentality but it is going to be rough for children even if one of them is going to be bullied. I have teen girls in high school. I wouldn’t even move them to another school in the same city. Teenage girls are so clique and mean even here in the US. I just think you are so naive. I’m horrified for your children. And btw Israelis look down on in on Anglos and think that their tora learning is not up to par.

Rappel

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 12:42 pm

Forest green, what you're describing sounds horrible. I'm sorry you went through that. Just know, that's not universal. I can't attest for every patch of Israel, but I can tell you about my little corner. DS is almost 4 now , and very gentle and submissive, and has a speech impediment. I was worried about sending him to gan, because I had heard rumors like yours. I needn't have worried. He loves gan. He has friends. He is one of the quieter, gentler kids in the group, but the ganenet knows how to run the show, and she teaches them properly. Every kid there is a star, and it's not a small group. Since he started gan, DS' manners have soared - one example: he always thanks me when I put his plate in front of him , and thanks Hashem for giving us food. That's something he learned in gan, not from me.

And what about when there are problem kids and bullies? I know that the year above DS was a rough one. 3 boys and one girl were very violent. 1 boy, and the girl, the ganenet recommended them speech therapy, and worked hard to help them adjust. Once their language improved, they calmed down, and this year are happy children. One child they recommended therapy, and he's also steady and normal now. The third boy, I don't know what went on behind the scenes. They lived opposite us, and imho, that child was a genuine psychopath - and I don't use that term lightly. They moved away in the spring, and I don't know what happened to them afterward Sad

But children are normal here. Educational systems aren't dog-eat-dog. They have manners and play well together. The teachers care about the students, and work to help each kid reach their potential. That's what I see at the schools here.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 4:59 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

Yep. I have a relative who married a Sefardi. They are still married but the culture clash was huge and they needed to do a lot of work to make it work.

banana123

Thu, Apr 23 2020, 5:05 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

I wasn't whitewashing. I was half-joking and wrote that tongue in cheek. I fully agree with you about the bullying and one of my children has suffered too. (We found a different solution, other than yerida.)

I'm sorry you had that experience. Sad

Rappel

Fri, Apr 24 2020, 2:38 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

Is this bullying more in the Charedi sector or all sectors? If we made Aliyah and sent to dati leumi schools, is there such intense bullying in those as well? Is it only towards chutznikim or is it just an overall problem?

I imagine there are bullies in every society (see my note above about the little kid who was a psychopath - he was unbelievable. I've never met anyone like him before or since), but no, there isn't tolerance for bullying or wildness in the local schools I've seen - Kochav Hashahar, Shiloh, Adei Ad, Beit El, Itamar, and Elon Moreh.

There is a strong emphasis on individual growth, and interpersonal relationships.

Because of chronic funding problems (the DL schools are actually given an educational budget for one big school, but since they are separate boys and girls schools, they need to pay twice the teachers), there isn't much in the way of advanced academic achievement, but I really like how the kids turn out as people, so I'll take the trade off Smile