Kiruv couples whose kids choose a different derech

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 1:52 am

One of our regular Shabbos guests (well, before covid) is an extremely sweet boy from a mixed (and biracial) marriage. He came for the first time along with his 2 Jewish roommates, and casually mentioned that his grandmother (his mother's mother) is also Jewish. A hidden diamond.

He came to our porch to get Shmurah Matzah for Pesach, and visited a Chabad House when learning overseas. He wears a yarmulka when he comes to our house, and has put on Tefillin. He is learning the bracha on challah and part of bentching.

This boy, who has wonderful middos, is helpful, respectful, and considerate, also happens to be gay. This is not something he advertises, and he has never brought a boyfriend with him.

He is also a very precious Jewish neshama.

I'm afraid that I take significant umbrage at calling someone like this "shmutz."

CiCi

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 1:54 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

THIS is exactly what I mean that it will become accepted behavior to those who are exposed to it.

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 1:59 am

CiCi wrote:

THIS is exactly what I mean that it will become accepted behavior to those who are exposed to it.

?!?!?

I do not accept or condone a gay lifestyle in any way, shape or form.

Although the desire may be natural, it is 100% asur al pi Torah, and if he would ever ask me straight I'd tell him that (gently).

My kids have no idea that he is gay, it has never come up in conversation. If it did, I'd explain the general concept the same way I explain Taavas Noshim, which is not "shmutz" either, but must be reserved for marriage and holiness.

When we see not-yet-religious Jews driving on Shabbos, we don't start accepting it. We recognize that it is wrong, and that the Jew in question either doesn't know better or is working on overcoming his Yetzer Hara in this area.

If one of the kids sees my skirt go above my knees, it's the exact same principle. It is wrong for me not to be fully tznius, and either I didn't notice or I'm going to have to work harder to overcome my Yetzer Hara.

Again, I am hurt that you can call a sweet and precious Jewish soul "shmutz" simply because he is not yet aware of the Torah view, and/or not yet strong enough in his spirituality to overcome his natural instincts.

CiCi

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 2:16 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

You need to reread the relevant passages of Tanach and mefurshim. You are being deliberately blind to the Torah view of toiavah. Feelings for a fellow Jew, and for humanity in general, is wonderful. But when people engage in shmutzig behavior, yes shmutzig behavior, then Hashem's protection recedes from us.

There's a reason why there's "Orthodox" shuls for gays and lesbians, as a commenter above stated. The reason is that as hard as it is to give up non-kosher and mechalel Shabbos, it is 1,000 times harder to stop being gay. It's a spreading cancer. And maybe you don't accept it as acceptible behavior according to the Torah, but certainly you are not repulsed by this behavior as you should be.

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 2:17 am

CiCi, do you honestly think that if we disapprove of someone's behavior, we must cut off all contact with them?

Does that apply to your own children?
To yourself, if you are lax about davening or spend too much time online?
To your spouse, if he starts having a hard time learning?

Do you honestly think that allowing someone to enter your home is a gold stamp of approval on every aspect of their lives?

What about your parents, if they do not hold precisely the same hashkafos as you?
Your neighbors, who perhaps focus more on different mitzvos?
Your childhood friends?

You can love and accept someone's neshama 100%, while at the same time not accepting or approving of the things they are not yet doing right.

Kids can understand these things better than we give them credit for. Just as they understand that the rules in your home and the rules in Dovi's home are different, just as they understand that Mommy can tolerate more noise than Bubby can, they can understand that Bob has a hard time keeping Shabbos and is working on it, while they are working on memorizing more Mishnayos Baal Peh.

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 2:26 am

CiCi wrote:

While I may be repulsed by my child's dirty diaper, vomit, or lack of manners, I am not repulsed by MY CHILD.

Perhaps you are aware of the way the Torah recommends a man view women?

https://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.152a?lang=bi
תנא אשה חמת מלא צואה ופיה מלא דם והכל רצין אחריה
I will avoid translating, but you can see the translation at that link.

So do you think a man should be REPULSED by a woman? Or repulsed by the idea of interacting with her in a non-Torah-approved fashion?

I may be repulsed by the aveira, but I am able to see past the dirt for what the person truly is: A pure Jewish soul, housed in a body that needs some refinement.

CiCi

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 2:46 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

There are basic rules in this house that everyone in this household must abide to. Absolutely no chutzpah, they must do their daily chore, and a few more basic rules, otherwise I'm pretty lax with my kids...and yes I am too much online these days, which usually happens before I tackle a major business project that I'm trying to push off because I'm a HUGE procrastinator when it comes to things I hate doing, so I need tons of breaks before and while I'm working on it. I end up finishing what I need to do but it's not good for the kids to see me on the phone this much...I actually want to work on that..yep, thanks for reminding me that I should work on this as it's totally wrong. But all people have failings...we are all human. And that is what I'm trying to say. You don't hear me pointing out any other negative behavior besides for toiavah. You are equalizing basic human faults and comparing it very serious immoral behavior.

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 2:52 am

CiCi wrote:

... But all people have failings...we are all human. And that is what I'm trying to say. You don't hear me pointing out any other negative behavior besides for toiavah. You are equalizing basic human faults and comparing it very serious immoral behavior.

The same Torah that calls specific types of acts "toeivah" also commands us to love every single Jew.

CiCi

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 2:57 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

There's actual halacha and there's the layman's (or laywoman's) learning of Gemarah without mefarshim. It's two very vastly different things.

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 3:07 am

CiCi wrote:

And therefore? We can let these people in our homes? You also must also Jewish murderers and molesters...Go ahead, invite them all to your house and be them mekarev. After all, kids neshames are hefker as long as we are mekarev Jews...

I don't encourage him to do any acts of toeiva inside my home. The fact that he has done so in the past, and may do so again in the future, does not make HIM disgusting. It is the behavior that Hashem terms "toeivah," not the person with such desires.

The reason why I do not allow molesters or murderers into my home is not because I find them repulsive, but because they are a danger. That is also why I would not allow a missionary into my home. If any guest would start proselytizing or encouraging others to sin, they would not be welcome in my home anymore. But that has nothing to do with the quantity or quality of their sins.

Chas veshalom to make a Jewish neshama hefker. My children are my priority. But I also care that other Yiddishe neshamos, "Tinokos Shenishbe'u," are not hefker, by abandoning them to the secular world and not giving them a chance to to do a mitzvah...

CiCi

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 3:18 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

The reason you wouldn't invite a murderer or molester into your home is because they are a physical danger to your children. LGTBs are a spiritual danger to your kids and you are not aware of that.

CiCi

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 3:25 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

Why exactly is an LGTBQ a greater spiritual danger than a Mechallel Shabbos Befarhesya?

I said earlier. There's a reason why there are "Orthodox shuls" that are open to gays and lesbians. It is 1,000x harder to change this behavior. It is a cancer that is very hard to get rid of. There's a reason why some segments of "Orthodox" communities openly engage in this behavior without compunction when they know exactly what the Torah thinks of it.

amother

Sienna

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 4:32 am

Quote:

I know people who did this though. In my country there is a prison clinic for people who get treated for their disorders so they can return t society safely.First you get real punishment in a jail and then you return to this system (sometimes people stay there there whole lives) where you get health care and lots of therapy.
So, this Chabad rabbi worked in the jail/prison world and there were jewish people also in these prison clinics who did aweful things but got better and indeed were invited (this only when the therapists, judge and everything had approved him to go out the clinic for one hour) and they needed to always have one mentor with them on a shabbos meal.
I don't know if they were murders but I think they weren't child molesters. And the children knew these people were there but my friend never had any, any harm from it neither her siblings. They just saw how big ahavat yisrael should be.

CiCi, I have the feeling your are vicious and totally focussed on gay,transgender people especially when you say there are ''cancer''. In my community lead by chabadd slumchim there has been a wave of cancer. They were not frum, went to shul by car, scooter or bike but the sluchim are the only source of yiddishkeit and who do outreach. And when despite being gay,,lesbian, violating shabbos they beg for a jewish burial that is the bracha the sluchim get.
But if you want to be totally against gay, transgender people you can do that, but lots of people already had really good arguments why you shouldn't be like that and as long you don't believe it you just need to shut this.
Go in the holy SH and preach this out, lots of other people choose a different path and that is ok. You are not Hashem and not a prophet. So stop this.

byisrael

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 4:54 am

Again - this is your opinion that you are stuck on but it is not the opinion of the Gedolim.

The rabbanim my father has spoken to say even with the prevalence of LGBT we should engage in kiruv and invite secular people into our homes, and we have very specific hadracha of how to engage when the issue practically comes up.
Basically the idea is to try to encourage as much mitzvah observance as possible but not to invest tremendous amount because it is very unlikely such persons will become fully frum. Obviously anyone vulger enough to bring of any kind of s- xuality in front of kids isn't someone you keep inviting .

I wonder how much contact you have with the actual secular world - the real world is very different then it is portrayed by hollywood/media.

And with kiruv the big thing is investing and talking about the torah hashkafa with your children.

You have very strong opinions but they are not backed by our gedolim so I feel free to diregard.

byisrael

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 5:07 am

Regarding kiruv kerovim/open houses. This is a much more complex issue because usually if someone is rebelling they have been very hurt by the community and exposing your kids to all that pain and bitterness.

I still think it is a huge mitzvah but the people that I know who have done this successfully have a ton of boundaries set in place and may have lots of struggling kids for shabbos but are careful that the ones they do have are respectful and aren't constantly cynical and making fun of the frum community.

moonstone

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 9:59 am

Hillery wrote:

I never get the people who'll fixate on one word in a comment and make their reply all about that. If you don't like the word bum, change it in your head to something you are okay with. But my main point is true, that open house policies almost always have negative effects on the host families.

ETA: I look at people for example my dear mother zol zein gezunt, who rarely a day goes by that she isn't busy doing chesed for people, but would use such a word. There's nothing lacking in her ahavas Yisroel, just some of us were brought up with the mentality of calling a spade a spade and aren't very PC. I'm not going to discuss this point further on this thread so as not to derail it.

That's twice I've seen you refuse to discuss something further after being called out for your nasty language. And words do matter. If someone used the n word to refer to a black person and people got upset, would you also consider that just a silly fixation on one word?

You do enjoy stirring the pot, don't you? I suggest you find some constructive hobbies to keep yourself busy.