Kiruv couples whose kids choose a different derech

Hillery

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 9:19 am

watergirl wrote:

I need to stop being shocked by the tone of your posts in general, as you seem to write for shock value. But I will say this. Not every couple who is in kiruv should be. Most never go through any sort of training at all. Many people who are "in kiruv" should not be. There is a balance and a delicate dance to kiruv life and family life. Not everyone can do it or should do it.

As to the way you are brazenly referring to yiddishe neshamos as "bums", well, that speaks more about you than it does to the holy "bums" who seek truth and Torah.

I never get the people who'll fixate on one word in a comment and make their reply all about that. If you don't like the word bum, change it in your head to something you are okay with. But my main point is true, that open house policies almost always have negative effects on the host families.

ETA: I look at people for example my dear mother zol zein gezunt, who rarely a day goes by that she isn't busy doing chesed for people, but would use such a word. There's nothing lacking in her ahavas Yisroel, just some of us were brought up with the mentality of calling a spade a spade and aren't very PC. I'm not going to discuss this point further on this thread so as not to derail it.

simcha2

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 9:29 am

Hillery wrote:

It's easy to show ahava and chesed to those who reflect ourselves back at us. A little harder when they don't.

(Calling another jew, who is searching, a bum, is not a case of calling a spade a spade. It's a case of being blind to the neshama of someone else. It's not a question of "PC" it's a question of ahavas yisrael.)

byisrael

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 9:40 am

Hillary what your saying is not true I know an equal amount of "open homes" that have successfully raised all or most (in todays day an age if 1 or two out of 8 struggle that isn't usually a reflection on the home) on the derech they would have if they where not doing kiruv. And I probably know more kiruv families then you do as a gre up in the life, went to multiple retreats for kiruv professionals, know a lot of their colleagues

The ones who did not have success with most of their kids - and in this I include not full fledged OTD but also just very different then the parents (say very lakewood style parents who's kids become LWMO - LWMO is not OTD in any shape or form but far from what parent would expect), usually had a variety of reason this happened.
Examples: Blurred the lines of what was acceptable, having a holier then thou attitude to the rest of frum society (only we are genuine...), to invested so much in the kiruv that it came at the families expense, children being s-xually abused by "mekarvee's" (yeah I know personally of 6 such cases Sad

), feeling out of place/ like outsider in the frum communities they are educated in, parents are very strong and passionate with strong and passionate kids who clash with teachers....

There are lots and lots of reasons - I don't feel like it's fair to judge - but I do think it is CRUCIAL for anyone going into kiruv to think about this and talk to some of these kids to learn what pitfalls they can avoid.

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 10:53 am

watergirl wrote:

I think you have a lot to learn about the kiruv movement in general. A small reminder: Avraham Avinu welcomed in much worse than who you mention above to his tent.

But if you truly feel that reaching out to all unaffiliated Jews or Jews who are affiliated but not with Torah true Judaism... give it 2 generations and you can say goodbye to the future of our religion.

I don't think that the people that Avraham Avini welcomed were worse than the ones I mentioned above who are engaged in the most despicable, immoral acts. But let's not argue that fact, Hashem is the one that judges people.

You have forgotten though, that Avraham Avini was 100 years old when he had Yitchok and Sara Imeini was 90! That means Sara Imeini did not need to worry about her child becoming influenced all these years they were doing kiruv, which is what an aim b'Yisroel should be concerned about.. And when Yishmael became a bad influence on Yitchok, he was sent away from home, an act sanctioned by Hashem! Because the ultimate goal of parents is to protect their own children! Every person has bechira so how a child ends up is not up to the parent, however we must do our hishtadlus to protect our kids from negative influence.

As to our nation becoming lost without bal teshivas, that is a complete myth. Throughout history we have always lost many, many of our people, a number too numerous too count. Whether it was in Egypt where only 20% of our people left, whether is was at the time of the churban with men, children and women taken into slavery, misplaced and killed, whether it was through forced conversions or the haskalah which started in the 18th century, large percentages of Jews were always lost to our nation, it is not a new phenomenon. We were always were small in number but Hashem Himself guarantees that we will always exist as a nation. Today there are approximately 2 million Orthodox Jews and the numbers are growing until Moshiach is coming and then hopefully we will be as many as what Hashem promised Avraham Avini. But don't you worry Hashem promised us our nation will exist forever.

Last edited by CiCi on Wed, Apr 29 2020, 10:59 am; edited 2 times in total

SuperWify

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 11:03 am

CiCi wrote:

Wow. I’d never thought I’d see the day where the kiruv movement would be called for a wipeout! I’m shocked. Just because it’s certainly not for you doesn’t discount the families that it may be for.

amother

Taupe

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 11:32 am

CiCi wrote:

As to our nation becoming lost without bal teshivas, that is a complete myth. Throughout history we have always lost many, many of our people, a number too numerous too count. Whether it was in Egypt where only 20% of our people left, whether is was at the time of the churban with men, children and women taken into slavery, misplaced and killed, whether it was through forced conversions or the haskalah which started in the 18th century, large percentages of Jews were always lost to our nation, it is not a new phenomenon. We were always were small in number but Hashem Himself guarantees that we will always exist as a nation. Today there are approximately 2 million Orthodox Jews and the numbers are growing until Moshiach is coming and then hopefully we will be as many as what Hashem promised Avraham Avini. But don't you worry Hashem promised us our nation will exist forever.

Non orthodox Jews are also Hashem's children. They are part of the nation promised to Avraham Avinu. They didnt have the benefit of a Jewish education like we did. If we were in their place, who knows, we would most probably be just like them. And if they were in our place, who knows, maybe they would be much better people than you and I.

It is for our collective benefit to share our Jewish heritage with all of those it belongs to. Why should they be left out? We all have the same core neshama.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 11:35 am

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

https://www.chabad.org/library/tanya/tanya_cdo/aid/7911/jewish/Chapter-32.htm

It is good for one's spiritual, emotional, and mental health to internalize perek lamed beis of Tanya. It teaches how to have true ahavas yisroel.

I also find it distasteful to discuss why kids turn out differently than their parents. Really what does it matter. Can we focus on ourselves, I'm sure there's plenty to fix there.

This is beautiful, and very timely. We are coming up on Lag B'Omer. Remember all of Rabbi Akiva's students who died.

Remember the loss of the Second Temple, all because of baseless hatred.

If we really want Moshiach soon and in our days, we MUST get over ourselves and bring all yidden back to the fold. Every neshama is precious, no matter what package it's wrapped in.

amother

Lilac

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 11:44 am

I wish the day will come when I can call myself “Baal teshuvah”. We’re all on journeys here. We’re none of us there yet. I have love and compassion for all Jews regardless of where they’re holding just as I hope others can find it in their hearts to feel that towards me.

ETA And don’t jump down my throat- (you know who I mean) love and compassion doesn’t mean condoning- it just means love and compassion- that’s all)

FranticFrummie

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 11:46 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

THIS!

amother

Babypink

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 11:52 am

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

I think it has more to do with personality than anything else. If parents are strong truth seekers, non conformists, etc why wouldn't you think their kids would be the same? Willing to think and evaluate and make changes based on that, willing to go against the crowd?
(As far as Avraham, remember each son had a very different mother. Not analogous.)

My parents were strong non conformists, but guess what? I have a different personality than they do, and am very much a conformist.

So I'm assuming you mean it has to do with the personality of the CHILD, because children are their own personality, separate from the parents, and sometimes choose their own path. In my case, I chose to be more like everyone else, and I like to blend in with the crowd.