Kiruv couples whose kids choose a different derech

amother

Navy

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 12:02 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

My parents were strong non conformists, but guess what? I have a different personality than they do, and am very much a conformist.

So I'm assuming you mean it has to do with the personality of the CHILD, because children are their own personality, separate from the parents, and sometimes choose their own path. In my case, I chose to be more like everyone else, and I like to blend in with the crowd.

Well, there are always exceptions, of course. But I do believe that just like physical traits, a lot of character/personality traits are genetic and passed down. (Like, Jews as a whole have inherited traits from Avraham, a desire to do chessed, etc.)

Many times people in the same family have similar personality traits. I've read articles about siblings split up at birth, who have found each other later in life and were astonishingly alike in traits and characteristics.

Anyway, maybe you are a throwback to a previous ancestor and have inherited those traits, rather than directly from your parents? That happens, too.

amother

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 12:56 pm

Quote:

Lubavitcher here. There are over 5,000 families of Shluchim doing what you call "kiruv" and many many are 2nd and even 3rd generation committing to that lifestyle. I don't think the percentage of kids going OTD is higher among Shluchim

True. I think it's because going on shlichus is looked up to as the ideal and there's a strong infrastructure in place to support families on shlichus.

Quote:

Blurred the lines of what was acceptable, having a holier then thou attitude to the rest of frum society (only we are genuine...), to invested so much in the kiruv that it came at the families expense, children being s-xually abused by "mekarvee's" (yeah I know personally of 6 such cases Sad ), feeling out of place/ like outsider in the frum communities they are educated in, parents are very strong and passionate with strong and passionate kids who clash with teachers....

That's interesting. It's true of the families I know that they're very idealistic and tend to get bothered by the frum community doing things that don't match the ideal. I can see how it would be hard to grow up hearing your parents criticize the community that you're part of all the time. I can see how it would be hard to have a foot in two worlds (the secular world via the Shabbos guests, and the frum world that you go to school in) and possibly hearing the frum world subjected to more criticism than the non-frum (because the frum should know and do better, unlike people who never had an opportunity to learn about Yiddishkeit). Interesting food for thought.

The abuse by mekarvees thing is horrifying. I hadn't realized.

I think I'm going to try harder to not criticize my community in front of my kids. I'm a BT with teenagers and b"H all but one of my kids seems strongly connected to Yiddishkeit. I'm going to start focusing more on the good and maybe it will help with my one kid who struggles. It's easy to take all the good in our communities for granted. Yes there are things that need fixing, but so many things that are beautiful and wonderful.

zaq

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 1:30 pm

CiCi wrote:

Wake up people! It's 2020, not 1985. When you invite all kinds of secular people who may be LGTB or people with gender dysphoria whom you'd never know they are of opposite gender than they present themselves, until you do realize... and people who may speak in appropriately and dress inappropriately at a Shabbos table, week after week after week...you don't realize that this can have a devastating effect on children?

Aha. And how do you account for all the OTD people whose charedi parents never hosted anyone outside of their own family?

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 2:23 pm

zaq wrote:

Aha. And how do you account for all the OTD people whose charedi parents never hosted anyone outside of their own family?

Everyone has a bechira, it's up to each person to choose in which way they want to go. However that doesn't mean we can open our homes to LGTBQ, gender "changed", untzntius in act and dress, individuals. Our homes are sacred.

But the bottom line is that there is a much higher percentage of not only individual kids, but children from entire families, that go OTD because they were exposed to much shmutz in their homes.

I know of a family, the parents are amazing, wonderful people who had opened their homes to all kinds of individuals for the purpose of kiruv and all their kids besides for one went either fully OTD or who is hanging on a thread keeping the bare minimum. And they are not the exceptions.

The first responsibility is to your own kids and exposing them to dangerous influence and hashkafas is irresponsible. Why is it of a bigger concern to you that you influence the stranger off the street than how your own child gets influenced?

amother

Forestgreen

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 2:27 pm

[quote="amother [ OP ]
I think I'm going to try harder to not criticize my community in front of my kids. I'm a BT with teenagers and b"H all but one of my kids seems strongly connected to Yiddishkeit. I'm going to start focusing more on the good and maybe it will help with my one kid who struggles. It's easy to take all the good in our communities for granted. Yes there are things that need fixing, but so many things that are beautiful and wonderful.[/quote]

I believe that kids really pick up on things even when they aren't said. I know some kiruv proffesional who have given me the feeling that they consider themselves as the only ones really doing hat hashem want even if they didn't say it explicitly- and if I felt it you be thier kids felt it.

I think the trick is not to hide your head in the sand about the issues that exist, and if your child gets hurt by them there is nothing wrong in pointing out that this is obviously against the torah. But it is really important to focus on the good (there is so much) and even to try to recognize the good intention a lot of the ugly comes from. For example one of the really ugly parts of frum society is the exclusivity when it comes to accepting kids into school. When I recognized the fact while its mostly kavod and gaiva fed now it probably started by parents caring about kids chinuch, and when you added that to our human failings it spiraled out of control - I also recognize the secular world has its fair share of exclusivity- it just manifests differently. This helps that while I still criticize the ugliness I am proud of being part of my community and my criticism gives a whole different vibe

amother

Forestgreen

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 2:35 pm

essie14 wrote:

I know TONS of families who do no kiruv whatsoever and their children do not remain as frum as the parents.

All the kids? Not 1 or two but the entire family?
Also are these families also very immersed in secular culture + critical of frum society?

I usually find that when an entire family becomes a lot less frum then the parents s/t is going on - it isn't really typical

what is typical is to have varying levels of observance, or two have a couple kids who struggle and a couple who are more according to the family "kav"

amother

Jade

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 2:39 pm

Lubavitcher here. Tbh I've found inviting non-frum people not only makes shabbat more interesting for the kids but it provides them with real life examples of chessed and hachnasat orchim. You can talk about Avraham aveinu welcoming three strangers after his brit til you're blue in the face but unless kids EXPERIENCE it in their home, it's fanciful talk and they don't internalize the message.

The so called "bums" are always welcome at my shabbos table.

amother

Brunette

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 2:53 pm

Another Lubavitcher here. Actually on shlichus myself. It's certainly not the case that shluchim's kids often choose a different derech. Although of course, you can have the occasional kid who doesn't fit the mould.

We have not frum guests every week. No trans people yet, but we did have a lesbian couple recently and we have a lovely gay friend who likes our shabbos table, but he leaves his non Jewish boyfriend at home.

My kids know these people are not frum. Peer pressure for my kids tends to come from their friends, not our shabbos guests.

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:10 pm

Hillery wrote:

This is very true. Rarely, if ever, do you see people who have open house policies, whose children haven't been affected negatively. Perhaps there is something to be said for not being so tolerant and accepting of anyone who doesn't behave torahdig, least not in order to keep your own family on the right path.

Here in SH I can think offhand of a few people who were mekarev every bum and allowed everyone through their doors, and their families were severely affected.

Every bum? Surely you mean every person who has a soul just like you.

We are among those who let in every bum and BH our kids are wholesome and sweet children. Not saying that kids who go off the derech are not but just responding to this particular sentiment. Our kids have no concept of the LGBTQ movement despite the fact that they regularly share the shabbos table with gay and trans people (Jews). How is that relevant to their interactions with them? They certainly don’t hear us talking about it because that has no bearing on our interactions with them either. We are jews, they are jews, and we are sharing a Shabbos meal together. I can see how there may be a feeling of hypocrisy if children would hear their parents gossiping about the guests after they leave....

The one and only time this issue has even arisen was when a child was giving out Kippot and asked a guest if they were a boy or a girl (said guest has facial and chest hair but wears dresses and makeup so easy to see why a 5 year old would ask). Guest replied that they are queer, kid had no idea what they meant, moved on to the next person, and didn’t give it another thought.

amother

Cyan

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:28 pm

Ora_43, I think you make a very interesting point about not feeling at home in a community. Like religious but culturally relate more to non religious. I am not sure that factor would be specific to kiruv families.
Is lubavich shlichus irrelevant to this pattern because of solid community support for this system?
Regarding the poster who called a million people bums, she must be from a very sheltered background, which is a huge risk factor for people going otd too. The shock a child of such gets when and if they meet the rest of the world and find out there are very fine people who are most certainly not bums out there, and in fact that its not exception, quite common.. that makes you doubt all the rhetoric you grew up with. I wonder if some kiruv adults find themselves in this exact situation.
If the kids pick up on this, and just simply don't like so many rules, it doesn't really need to go deeper than that.

Or, maybe big or, the parents are hypocritical and put on a false show for the sake of kiruv and the kids learn the lesson well that its really not the way the parents are selling it so they buy out.
I hear this a lot from bt's who were mekareved this way. That it was falsely represented. Like convincing a toddler that very perfect yummy banana is a delicious birthday cake. If the kids are smart & spiritual they can very logically choose different.

yiddishmom

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:45 pm

I did not read the whole thread.

But, regarding whether inviting other types of jews to your home has a negative effect on children or not, here is my take:

There is no right or wrong answer.

I grew up in very open house. Plenty of people walked through our doors, and many different types. G@y, Bi, Les, teens who haven't yet made up their mind on which side of the spectrum they want to be. Many discussion were discussed very openly at our shabbos table (zex, intermarriage, etc.).

All of us adult children are totally keeping the Torah and mitzvos BH and are on the same basic path as our parents. There are still many young children at home, and there are no guarantees, but Be'ezrat Hashem they will grow up taking a similar path.

I'm not so sure tho that I am ready to have an open house.

That's because there is a lot more to chinuch than who your guests are or aren't, and which discussions your children can or can't hear.

If you bring in more guests then there is more dynamics to deal with, which means that parents will need more kochos to instill the right love for Hashem and his Torah in their children, and I am not sure I have that.

In fact, I think if parents have those extra kochos, and do kiruv/ have an open home, their children will grow up with a much more enriched Torah life and much much better people. Much more understanding, patient, forgiving, tolerant, etc.

I hope I managed to write down my thoughts clearly.

amother

Oak

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:58 pm

byisrael wrote:

Hillary what your saying is not true I know an equal amount of "open homes" that have successfully raised all or most (in todays day an age if 1 or two out of 8 struggle that isn't usually a reflection on the home) on the derech they would have if they where not doing kiruv. And I probably know more kiruv families then you do as a gre up in the life, went to multiple retreats for kiruv professionals, know a lot of their colleagues

The ones who did not have success with most of their kids - and in this I include not full fledged OTD but also just very different then the parents (say very lakewood style parents who's kids become LWMO - LWMO is not OTD in any shape or form but far from what parent would expect), usually had a variety of reason this happened.
Examples: Blurred the lines of what was acceptable, having a holier then thou attitude to the rest of frum society (only we are genuine...), to invested so much in the kiruv that it came at the families expense, children being s-xually abused by "mekarvee's" (yeah I know personally of 6 such cases Sad

), feeling out of place/ like outsider in the frum communities they are educated in, parents are very strong and passionate with strong and passionate kids who clash with teachers....

There are lots and lots of reasons - I don't feel like it's fair to judge - but I do think it is CRUCIAL for anyone going into kiruv to think about this and talk to some of these kids to learn what pitfalls they can avoid.

Can you elaborate on this- give some examples of blurring the lines of what's acceptable and having a holier than thou attitude?

amother

Seafoam

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 3:59 pm

CiCi wrote:

I don't think that the people that Avraham Avini welcomed were worse than the ones I mentioned above who are engaged in the most despicable, immoral acts. But let's not argue that fact, Hashem is the one that judges people.

You have forgotten though, that Avraham Avini was 100 years old when he had Yitchok and Sara Imeini was 90! That means Sara Imeini did not need to worry about her child becoming influenced all these years they were doing kiruv, which is what an aim b'Yisroel should be concerned about.. And when Yishmael became a bad influence on Yitchok, he was sent away from home, an act sanctioned by Hashem! Because the ultimate goal of parents is to protect their own children! Every person has bechira so how a child ends up is not up to the parent, however we must do our hishtadlus to protect our kids from negative influence.

As to our nation becoming lost without bal teshivas, that is a complete myth. Throughout history we have always lost many, many of our people, a number too numerous too count. Whether it was in Egypt where only 20% of our people left, whether is was at the time of the churban with men, children and women taken into slavery, misplaced and killed, whether it was through forced conversions or the haskalah which started in the 18th century, large percentages of Jews were always lost to our nation, it is not a new phenomenon. We were always were small in number but Hashem Himself guarantees that we will always exist as a nation. Today there are approximately 2 million Orthodox Jews and the numbers are growing until Moshiach is coming and then hopefully we will be as many as what Hashem promised Avraham Avini. But don't you worry Hashem promised us our nation will exist forever.

Blagh. You know....there are a number of baalei teshuva and geirim here....

ora_43

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 4:14 pm

Some posts are talking like most children of kiruv couples grow up to not be frum at all Confused

.

I don't think that was the question, and it certainly isn't true.

It's also not true that a kid going OTD is a parenting fail, or even that multiple kids in one family going OTD is a parenting fail. It can be, but often isn't. Maybe sometimes neshamot that are going to find it harder are put into families with room in their hearts to accept and love them even when they aren't on the same derech. Maybe sometimes davka the good parents are the ones who give their kids room to be what they need to be, even if that's MO and the parents are chassidic.

I agree with whoever said it that the guests themselves aren't a threat (unless parents are leaving them alone with their kids, I guess Sad

). A 12-year-old girl doesn't feel any social pressure to be more like a 28-year-old gay man.

Where you can have issues is

- a 12-year-old girl might feel alienated from her friends if they're saying nasty things about gay people, and she knows really nice gay people

- if every Shabbas is all about the guests, it might be difficult for her to get enough quality time with her parents.

But there are plenty of kiruv families who manage to navigate those waters just fine.

zaq

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 4:19 pm

CiCi, you seem to have a fixation with gender-fluid/gender-ambiguous and homos*xual individuals. you rail against letting them into frum homes, and not against admitting people who are vulgar, disrespectful, dishonest, selfish, unfaithful in their marriages or speak lashon hara. I have to wonder why you harp on this particular sin. Are there that many gender-fluid etc. people being mekareved? And have the people in kiruv been welcoming the gender-nonbinary population long enough for their children to have gone OTD as a result?

amother

Babyblue

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 4:27 pm

zaq wrote:

And what do we do with our own children who are gender fluid, or LGBTQ? Do we throw them out of our homes?