Kiruv couples whose kids choose a different derech

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 4:33 pm

zaq wrote:

CiCi, you seem to have a fixation with gender-fluid/gender-ambiguous and homos*xual individuals. you rail against letting them into frum homes, and not against admitting people who are vulgar, disrespectful, dishonest, selfish, unfaithful in their marriages or speak lashon hara. I have to wonder why you harp on this particular sin. Are there that many gender-fluid etc. people being mekareved? And have the people in kiruv been welcoming the gender-nonbinary population long enough for their children to have gone OTD as a result?

Yes, I think they are a bigger problem. Everyone knows loshen hora is wrong, being disrespectful, etc. is wrong. But "alternative lifestyle" can be eventually seen as "alternative lifestyle" which we have to accept c"v...

Last edited by CiCi on Wed, Apr 29 2020, 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Scarlet

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 4:33 pm

CiCi wrote:

... As to our nation becoming lost without bal teshivas, that is a complete myth. ... But don't you worry Hashem promised us our nation will exist forever.

Would you speak this way about your children, chas veshalom? "Only one of them is ill, even if we lose them, our family name will continue. They will all rise at Techiyas Hameisim anyhow. We don't need to worry about them."

If you truly see every Jew as Hashem's only child, you will never be able to callously write them off. If you truly see Torah and mitzvos as a precious gift, a birthright, you will never be able to deprive a fellow Jew of their beauty. If you truly see every Jew as a soul which is part of Hashem Himself, you will never be able to see them superficially, as no more than the sins they commit unwittingly.

If you saw the Jewish nation as a Sefer Torah, you would realize that if some of us are missing, we are all incomplete.

It is true that not everyone is cut out for every type of kiruv. But it is a responsibility we share to give each and every Jew the opportunity to strengthen their connection to Hashem, one mitzvah at a time.

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 4:38 pm

yiddishmom wrote:

I did not read the whole thread.

But, regarding whether inviting other types of jews to your home has a negative effect on children or not, here is my take:

There is no right or wrong answer.

I grew up in very open house. Plenty of people walked through our doors, and many different types. G@y, Bi, Les, teens who haven't yet made up their mind on which side of the spectrum they want to be. Many discussion were discussed very openly at our shabbos table (zex, intermarriage, etc.).

All of us adult children are totally keeping the Torah and mitzvos BH and are on the same basic path as our parents. There are still many young children at home, and there are no guarantees, but Be'ezrat Hashem they will grow up taking a similar path.

I'm not so sure tho that I am ready to have an open house.

That's because there is a lot more to chinuch than who your guests are or aren't, and which discussions your children can or can't hear.

If you bring in more guests then there is more dynamics to deal with, which means that parents will need more kochos to instill the right love for Hashem and his Torah in their children, and I am not sure I have that.

In fact, I think if parents have those extra kochos, and do kiruv/ have an open home, their children will grow up with a much more enriched Torah life and much much better people. Much more understanding, patient, forgiving, tolerant, etc.

I hope I managed to write down my thoughts clearly.

Being exposed to all of that it's definitely a nes that non of your siblings went went OTD. But we are not allowed to rely on nissim.

byisrael

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 4:39 pm

Big disclaimer - my parent do kiruv and they and most of there colleagues are amazing. I addition to that no one is perfect and some should really be doing something else

Only examples I have seen people in kiruv in real life do - not typical at all, most professionals know how to avoid these pitfalls
Blurred lines:
Inappropriate language (sometimes cursing) so they sound "cool" and with it
Young single man doing kiruv having deep long conversation about women's issues with a group of teen girls (this was at a retreat Can't Believe It

)
Attending drunken mixed dancing events, with all your kids, and staying for the whole thing "don't want to insult anyone" instead of going to event and stepping out for dancing/or just attending ceremony
Inappropriate gender relationships - Unfortunately I know I whole bunch of cheating stories - though these ppl. where fired when it got out.....

Holeir then though attitude is harder to describe, its more of a sense you ge from som kiruv pro's -we have the right version of yiddeshkiet, we are the only ones authentic- everyone else are robots/ot thinking. This is an attitude you sometimes see in BT as well. The thing is when you bash the frum community constantly, why would someone want to be part of it? How could you respect your rabbi's and teachers if your parents know more about emunah/judism then they do.....

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 4:44 pm

byisrael wrote:

Not typical perhaps, but it happens enough and it's guaranteed to become worse. Our communities have to deal with enough issues as it is, I don't see the point in introducing more problems.

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:14 pm

byisrael wrote:

CiCi - thats your opinion but it is not the opinion of the gedolim both in the usa and eretz yisroel. My father has spoken personally about kiruvto Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky, Rav Matisyahu Solomon, The Novominsk rebbe zz"l, The Tolner Rebber, Rav Elyashiv zz"l, Rav Stieman, zz"l, Rav Osher Wiess....

They all think that kiruv is a huge zchus and vital.

But hey I guess you know better.....

Did your father say what people on this thread are saying is seen and spoken? Nope. These things were not discussed at that Shabbos table, I can guarantee you that. A man/women with a beard and skirt and makeup, (as one person said that creature was at a function or in their home, I can't remember the exact scenerio) was not in any of the above gedolim's homes, I guarantee you that.

simcha2

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:18 pm

CiCi wrote:

If you think the only way yout children will stay frum is if they don't know anything else, it says that you don't think frum life is the best life out there.

I want children who actually choose to be frum, not a default because they know nothing else. I want them to be actively invested in their relationship with Hashem and yiddishkeit.

The irony of yours and Hillery's posts is that those you are railing against are those who have seen other lifestyles and still want to choose frumkeit.

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:36 pm

simcha2 wrote:

They will see different lifestyles when their brains are fully developed adults, not when they are still developing and likely to become confused or weak when even many adults in the kiruv line have caved in too. Even adults shouldn't deliberately expose themselves to such kinds of people. People gave yetzer horas, you know that? Even when their logical brain told them it's wrong, people were still nichshal just by being in situations that exposed them to shmutz.

ora_43

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:38 pm

Some of the comments here remind me of a conversation with a frum Israeli I met from a small frum community in my area.

At one point I asked him, "oh, do you have to be religious to live there? or is it mixed?"

and he said, "Mixed. The parents are religious, the kids aren't."

Now, that was a joke, obviously. But with a healthy dose of truth in it.

Temptation comes from the inside. You could lock out the entire world and still find yourself struggling with shaky faith. It's one of the risks of the human condition.

Of course each parent needs to think carefully about which behaviors they'll welcome in their home, which conversations to have in front of the kids and at what ages, who they should encourage their children to look to as role models. But it's not a simple "us" vs "them", where if you just keep the "them" away, you're safe.

simcha2

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:42 pm

CiCi wrote:

Yes, and yetzer hatovs too?

I'm not frum out of fear. I'm frum because I believe that Hashem gave the Torah to follow.

Incidentally I'm married to a BT, I'm glad my kids get to be exposed to and love their non frum family. It gives them a degree of compassion and ahavas yisrael that is sorely lacking in some quarters. It gives them pride in our way of life. It allows them to question and to find answers.

I find the way you speak about other Jews "such kinds of people" at such odds with Torah values, that I'm glad my children are learning a different derech.

amother

Black

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:44 pm

CiCi wrote:

Hashem yerachem. I didn't even realize how bad the situation is. This thread really opened my eyes. I can't believe people let their kids be exposed to such shmutz.

What needs to be clarified is that there is a variety of hashkafos in yiddishkeit with regard to Chinuch and they each (well most anyway) have validity. Here are the two opposing ones we're seeing on this thread and each are backed by many Rabbonim and have been hashed out by people much greater than ourselves.

1. The ideal way to be Mechanech children is to prevent any outside influences to come into their lives before we feel they are old enough to know right from wrong. Our children are sheltered within our homes to only be exposed to those with a similar outlook. It's our hope that if our children are raised in this way, they will grow up to be Yirei Shamayim and have a clear perspective on how to be an erliche yid.

2. (This is the mainstream hashkafa in lubavitch and the attitude that I was raised with and raise my children with.) We live in a difficult generation. Even Moshe Rabeinu himself looked at the generation preceding Moshiach (us) and said how he wouldn't be able to live through it. It's the first time in Jewish history (that I know of) where we are able to assimilate into the non Jewish world so easily.

Since all the Jewish people are one body, each of us has an inborn responsibility for the well-being of another both physically and spiritually. The same way we rally to help those in poverty or sickness, we need to rally to insure the spiritual health of our fellow Jews. In order to influence another, one needs to strengthen themselves and be deeply connected to the ideals and values that they represent. Without that connection, you won't be able to influence another and will end up being influenced instead. Therefore, when we are putting our energy towards caring for the spiritual (and physical) well being of yidden who are not living a lifestyle infused with Torah and Yiddishkeit, we need to be extraordinarily careful to make sure that we and our children have deeply internalized that which we stand for. Each family will decide for themselves, with the help of a Rav or Mashpia, what they will tell their children when faced with something that contradicts their values and the sanctity of their home.

So, to summarize, while we do value the sanctity of our homes and view it with utmost importance, we also recognize that we have a responsibility to our fellow Jews and we work constantly on achieving the ideal balance of both.

I hope this clarifies the issue at hand.

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 5:46 pm

CiCi wrote:

I don’t think it’s “right”. Nor do I think them driving to our house on shabbos or using their phones as soon as they leave is “right”. But tell me, how am I going to prevent them from doing any of those things? Is it better that a Jew also shouldn’t eat a shabbos meal at a shabbos table (which is “right”) for a short period of time because I may disagree with other things they are doing in their personal lives? They have free choice, last I checked.

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 6:00 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

The problem is not that secular Jews come to your house. The problem is that secular Jews from this generation are coming to your house. The secular lifestyle even only 20 years ago was much more healthy and wholesome than the lifestyle people are living today.

How in the world can people take their precious, growing, and immature children and expose them to such shmutz is beyond me. What will happen later in life is beyond our control, our tafkid is to provide an atmosphere that is conducive to their growth in yiras shomayim and ahavas Hashem. In no way, shape or form can inviting the people who engage in the lowest and most sinful behavior create an growing atmosphere. It rather creates a struggling atmosphere. Yes, every person struggles with their yetzer hora and circumstances that may be challenging, but parents can't add to those struggles because they want to save the world.

byisrael

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 6:00 pm

CiCi you responded to my post about kiruv in general not the whole trans thing

And actually the hadracha he got was to not actively reach out to trans people, and if they reach out to him be pareve - not invest a tremendous amount of time.

But I hate to break it to you there aren't THAT many trans ppl. -it's never come up

Regarding LGBTQ - it's not something that comes up on a shabbos table and if it does they just say we'd be happy to discuss it later.

The family has had private discussions on what the torah hashkafa is - and at the same time we understand that these people really have no clue there is something wrong with the with the lifestyle....

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 6:03 pm

CiCi wrote:

Not typical perhaps, but it happens enough and it's guaranteed to become worse. Our communities have to deal with enough issues as it is, I don't see the point in introducing more problems.

As with everyone in every profession or life-calling, it is each person’s responsibility to put safeguards in place and use the fences the Torah gave us as our guidelines.

If there’s only 1 female left at the table and I’ve gone to bed, my husband will call it a night and end things as well. He will never have a “counseling” session without his office door ajar. We have had drunk/high students call us about picking them up. We are HAPPY they are doing the responsible thing and calling us. We still arrange for them to be safe while neither of us has to be put in a potentially compromising position. Believe it or not, if you are a responsible person who is serious about following Torah guidelines and passionate about what you do, you can do the right thing. My husband leads israel trips. The kids know he doesn’t join them on beach day. He is clear about why. They love and respect him nonetheless and if anything are introduced to a new concept. We even end up at crazy parties sometimes (gasp) because we are bringing a birthday gift. Guess what? We show up, hug them if they are the same gender,, smile and warmly wish a happy birthday, and leave. Why would we be interested in partying with a bunch of 20 year olds?

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 6:07 pm

CiCi wrote:

Do you know that if no one makes a big deal about it, kids don’t even notice? I have found that the kids who notice and rail about things are usually the kids whose parents do the same. It’s like, just don’t talk about it. Would I rather a kid who goes on and on about the terrible “gay lifestyle” or a kid who is unaware of what that even means? You can probably guess which I’d prefer.

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 6:19 pm

byisrael wrote:

My issue is not with kiruv itself only with the secular society that is being "mekarev" today. 20 years ago things were different. Read through this thread and see what kind of people and discussions many have at their Shabbos table. Your parents are more sensible the way they go about it, and it could also be the location where they live attracts older people or they may live in Eretz Yisroel where things are also not as bad as in chutz laaretz. The fact is that todays' kids are fed a diet of immorality from kindergarten. This is required curriculum by the government! The fact is that are a lot of LGBTs and the numbers keep on growing and it's a danger for Yiddishe kinder to be around these people.