Kiruv couples whose kids choose a different derech

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 6:22 pm

CiCi wrote:

The problem is not that secular Jews come to your house. The problem is that secular Jews from this generation are coming to your house. The secular lifestyle even only 20 years ago was much more healthy and wholesome than the lifestyle people are living today.

How in the world can people take their precious, growing, and immature children and expose them to such shmutz is beyond me. What will happen later in life is beyond our control, our tafkid is to provide an atmosphere that is conducive to their growth in yiras shomayim and ahavas Hashem. In no way, shape or form can inviting the people who engage in the lowest and most sinful behavior create an growing atmosphere. It rather creates a struggling atmosphere. Yes, every person struggles with their yetzer hora and circumstances that may be challenging, but parents can't add to those struggles because they want to save the world.

Im sorry but what in god's name do you think all secular people are doing that is so awful? We have not religious relatives, lots of them. They have come into our homes. They are respectful and not vulgar. What do you think they are doing that is the lowest and most sinful behavior? Not every person that is not frum is bad. I promise you.
And what shmutz? I grew up in a home full of kiruv. Converts, BTs etc. It was amazing. People who CHOSE frumkeit and we get to experience shabbat with them. It was a great honor in our home. Nothing shmutzy, nothing sinful. Really, your imagination is running away from you.

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 6:58 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

First of all, did you read through this thread to see that not only were my suspicions correct, in many instances the situation is worse than I thought? Secondly, nowhere in my thread did I say ALL secular people are bad. It really depends where you grew up and how old you are. I'm talking about the situation nowadays, and I mean primarily in the US. And even so, not all secular people support or engage in immorality. But it's a big risk if you are in the business of kiruv today you will likely end up with such individuals in your home. Thirdly, I have never said that secular people are not well behaved and not respectful or vulgar. Even LGTBs can be respectful and not vulgar and I never said that they are not.

The problem is the cesspools of tumah a large percentage of secular are bringing into Yiddishe homes because of what the secular society is today. And kids growing up with this kind of behavior WILL eventually accept it as "normal, alternative lifestyle".

amother

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 7:21 pm

Quote:

Holeir then though attitude is harder to describe, its more of a sense you ge from som kiruv pro's -we have the right version of yiddeshkiet, we are the only ones authentic- everyone else are robots/ot thinking. This is an attitude you sometimes see in BT as well. The thing is when you bash the frum community constantly, why would someone want to be part of it? How could you respect your rabbi's and teachers if your parents know more about emunah/judism then they do.....

Ouch. I think this is me more than I'd like it to be. I don't mean to do it but stuff comes out when I'm stressed. I'm going to try to really work on this. Thanks for posting, it's been very helpful for me to hear your perspective.

amother

Black

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 7:24 pm

CiCi wrote:

You're really ignoring the key issue here. When a family makes the decision to devote themselves to kiruv, they work very hard on building up their children to be able to discern right from wrong. It's not just having an open house and allowing everyone and anyone to talk to the kids about all sorts of things without giving thought to how to make sure the children are strong and proud of their yiddishkeit. And obviously creating a respectful atmosphere at home where people won't bring up inappropriate topics in front of the kids.

amother

Taupe

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 7:29 pm

It is your choice to focus on what they do wrong, or what they are and do right.
They are fellow yidden just like you. A neshama inside waiting and yearning to be uncovered.

You can rant about tumah and cesspools or you can look beyond and focus on their essence as a fellow Jew and all the things they do right, all the many mitzvos they perform without even knowing they are mitzvos! It says every Jew is full of mitzvos as a pomegranate is full of seeds.

How would you prefer others look at you? By your sins? Or in a positive way?

Nonfrum Jews deserve the same basic dignity and respect as you expect for yourself.

It's better to stop the lashon hara about Jews who are beloved by Hashem and see them the way He does.

There is a famous saying about what is more important, ahavas Hashem or ahavas yisroel. The answer is that if you don't love those He loves, you don't love Him either.

CiCi

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 7:48 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

Please learn halachas. It is not loshen hora to talk about non-frum people.

It's ridiculous that you are equating frum Jews to secular and LGTBQ.

It's ridiculous that because I believe a Yiddishe home should not have people who engage in immoral behavior and openly speak about it, I supposedly don't love Hashem.

Your equation is completely skewed. Please read the Torah and look at how Hashem deals with such severe sin. Look what Rashi says regarding the mabil and gays. You are going to say that we are not perfect. No, no one is. That doesn't mean our home can be open to those who's behavior is not simply worse but the lowest of low. We have a duty to protect our homes and our children.

amother

Black

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 7:51 pm

CiCi wrote:

You seen to be deliberately ignoring my post on the previous page explaining the difference in hashkafa. Please read it to better understand why people fundamentally disagree with you and are still frum.

amother

Taupe

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 8:03 pm

CiCi wrote:

I have brought several quotes from Torah to support what I've said. I won't take credit, it is one of the abcs of chabad chassidus hashkafa.
I don't need your approval or agreement. I'm letting you know there is a different way than you've known till now. A way that both protects our homes and invited people in.

Hillery

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 8:37 pm

After reading all the replies, I've realised that there are various kinds of kiruv homes, and various kinds of people attending these home. Much of what was said about one kind, was mistakenly thought to apply to other kinds, and that's why people have taken offence. Allow me to explain.

The question was asked whether there is a higher prevalence of OTD children in the homes of kiruv people or not. It is a legitimate question, and one that must be considered if somebody is looking to go into kiruv in any way.

But here's the thing, there's lubavitch style kiruv, which I'll not bother trying to define perfectly as their MO is quite well known. But basically they have trained shluchim go out to fringe communities, set up a frum base and work at disseminating Yiddishkeit. To this effect they'll almost always have non-frum guests at their Shabbos seedos (also during the week), and the aim is to make as many BTs as possible.

In truth, much of what has been discussed here doesn't apply to Lubavitch, as they are in a category of their own. As far as I can ascertain for the most part there aren't more problems with shluchim families than with others (some might say it's there are fewer problems). This isn't to say Lubavitch hasn't got their unique challenges as a community, but that isn't relevant to this discussion.

Before I continue:
Where I come from, it's everyday language to use words like bums, leidig-geiyers and so on for teens or young adults who aren't behaving as they should. It honestly never crossed my mind that anyone would take offence, but here we are. For the sake of using some kind of definiton, I'll write 'outcasts' - which if you like is more a judgement on society than on the individuals. But if anyone has a problem with that word, in your head just substitute it for something more palatable. It's that simple.

Then you have something totally different, and that is what I had in mind when I wrote my comments. You have people whose aim it is to provide an open house for all and sundry, with no judgement whatsoever, but more importantly - and this is the crucial difference - with no overt proselytizing. These people think they're doing a great mitzvah by basically providing outcasts with a place to chill, get a meal etc.

Offhand I can think of a few such people in SH whose families were very badly affected by this. When you have all kinds of unsavoury characters in your home (I'm talking about their guf, not the pure neshama), it has a negative effect on your children. They hear language and concepts that they should be shielded from, they hear lots of leitzunes against rabbonim and halacha, and more.

Now I get that often these teens are in pain and they need help to get back on the derech, but surely your first responsibility is to your own family, before helping others (specially as they did lamaaseh make bad choices).

There is also a whole other kind of frei guest, somebody who didn't grow up with Yiddishkeit and is interested in learning. These people are absolutely not what I was talking about before, and as long as they are genuinely interested and will behave with respect, there is much more inyan to host them for seedos. Even with them there can be problems, because they might innocently raise questions that shouldn't necessarily be raised in front of the whole family, so before embarking on a kiruv way of life you have to seek guidance from a wise rov who knows you and your family. But these kind of guests are of the lesser risk.

There's much more to be said on the topic, but I'm getting tired...

Last edited by Hillery on Wed, Apr 29 2020, 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

ROFL

Wed, Apr 29 2020, 10:34 pm

What is SH ??????

Hillery wrote:

CiCi

Thu, Apr 30 2020, 12:34 am

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

Indeed, as a convert married to a convert I can assure those who worry about 'shmutz' that a ger tzedek is most certainly someone to take example from and not look down upon. I do speaking events in various communities across Israel and have encountered endless FFBs who told me that they could never have done what I did and admire where I am today in my avodat Hashem etc. Same goes for BTs - I've met so many and HALAVAI that I should ever reach their level of dedication to yiddishkeit.

My use of shmutz was for LGTBs. I have made that clear in numerous posts. I have also said in an earlier post that not all secular people are alike. It is not mutually exclusive that there are serious non-Jews and secular Jews who are interested in Judaism and in growing spiritually while there are also secular people who engage in the lowest of shmutz and they are not particularly looking to grow and change, they simply are looking for an experience that was promised to them.

If people who are serious seek to find out about Yiddishkeit then of course we must be there for them, but in 2020 you cannot indiscriminately drag anyone who claims to be a Jew into your home.