Mandatory Covid Vaccine

OutofTown Girl

Wed, May 27 2020, 11:02 am

OutofTown Girl wrote:

The concept of "dash bo rabim" has been around since the times of the Shulchan Aruch, it's hardly an invention of Rav Elyashiv's. I happened to have read tshuvos concerning medicine, with the mention of vaccines, by these two poskim, so I mentioned their names. But this is an age-old fundamental concept which I believe is accepted in all streams of Judaism that follow the Shulchan Aruch.

(As an aside, Rav Zilbershtein is an expert on medical halacha and is widely respected on this topic in EY and beyond. As for Rav Elyashiv - I don't need to explain to you what posek hador means.)

I want to correct myself by saying that the concept of "dash bo rabim" [to use as a litmus test whether an action is safe and acceptable to do] is first detailed in two places in the Gemara.

The Shulchan Aruch then codifies the concept as applicable to Jewish law.

amother

Blush

Wed, May 27 2020, 11:32 am

#BestBubby wrote:

Doctors are pressured to deny that vaccines cause any injuries or death that follows vaccination. They claim that if 400 healthy children die after vaccination every year it is just a "co-incidence". Some even admit they won't sign medical exemptions or they can lose their license.

Have you ever met a conspiracy theory you don't like?

Yes, there have been investigations into doctors who are alleged to issue exemptions fraudulently. One issued over 1000 exemptions in just 3 years, allegedly without medical basis. (Most doctors have somewhere from 1000 to 2500 patients, so that's really an astounding number of exemptions.)
Another granted an exemption because the child had an allergic reaction after a bee sting. The government wants to catch hacks who grant baseless exemptions, not those who do so honestly.

amother

Blush

Wed, May 27 2020, 11:39 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

The only valid response to this is Banging head

and I hope you thank G-d this isn't YOUR kid.

Why.

How would you feel if your child got polio, and was paralyzed. Or mumps, and became sterile.

That's what you're advocating for.

All I'm advocating for is that doctors be allowed to exercise their best medical judgment, not be forced to provide care in the manner advocating by Dr. Quack and Ms. Barely Made it Through High School But Googled on the Internet. (Not references to anyone here.)

If my child had a vaccine reaction, I would discuss it with the pediatrician. If the pediatrician said that vaccines were contraindicated, I would thank Hashem that others are required to vaccinate. If she told me that she would nevertheless refuse to sign an exemption, and vaccinate my child notwithstanding the fact that it was medically dangerous, I would find a new pediatrician and report her to the state licensing board. If I didn't trust her judgment, I would find a new doctor.

#BestBubby

Wed, May 27 2020, 1:44 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Can someone explain why you are so scared of Autism and want an official study? Who is to not say Diabetes is higher with vaxxed children. Or Schizophrenia?

Why have you decided it’s Autism that must be higher and because of a completely ungrounded fear you want the CDC to make a study for something there is no proof is even an issue.

1. I don't want an official study on autism alone. I want to compare the health outcomes of
Vax vs UnVax looking at all reported injuries following vaccination including : autism, seizures,
encephalopathy (brain swelling - can cause brain damage like autism), diabetes, epilepsy, allergies, asthma, adhd

2. There IS evidence that vaccines cause autism:

a. Thousands of parents reported that their 100% normal children developed seizures after vaccines and regressed into autism. There are before and after videos of the children walking, talking and smiling before vaccination and completely stopped after vaccination.

b. there are scientists who have studies showing that the ingredients in vaccines cause brain damage.

c. there are reports that autism is extremely rare in populations that don't vaccinate

d. The rate of autism went from 1:5,000 in 1970 (per CDC) to 1:50 today. The spike in autism began after 1990 when the CDC quadrupled (4x) the number of vaccines babies/children get.

#BestBubby

Wed, May 27 2020, 1:47 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

1. And what about the child who had two nearly fatal reactions after vaccination, yet no doctor
will write a medical exemption - one doctor admitted being AFRAID to do so!

2. Nobody should need a medical exemption. It should be the parent's decision as it has been the law up until a few years ago (2015).

Blush, do you believe that your children are government property and government makes medical decisions for your children, or do you believe that parents make medical decisions for
their children?

SixOfWands

Wed, May 27 2020, 2:05 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Autism is generally diagnosed at the age when kids get vaccines. It makes sense that they would be diagnosed near the time of vaccines. That shows nothing. http://www.tylervigen.com/spur.....tions

There is no evidence that vaccines cause autism. There was a single study in which the results were falsified. Since then its been ITS THIMEROSAL. Take out the thimerosal. Autism still increases. ITS SOMETHING ELSE. Every time shown to be incorrect. Only to hear well, we know its the vaccines, let's make something else up.

People like you have blood on your hands. Every child born with severe ASD. You have essentially halted research into real causes and real things that can be done, forcing medical researchers to chase after conspiracy theories based on falsified evidence. Instead of real treatments to help. Time and time and time again. Blood.

REAL research shows the genetic component. That older parents are more likely to have a child with ASD. There may be environmental factors as well.

Additionally, changing definitions and better diagnosis is a large factor in the increased prevalence. Back in the 50s and 60s, children on the less severe end of the spectrum were just considered a little odd. Now they're diagnosed. Even children on the more severe end were often misdiagnosed with other intellectual impairments.

I generally don't care about your ridiculous conspiracy theories. But this one is hurting people.

amother

Plum

Wed, May 27 2020, 2:47 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I would say this, many babies were not given routine pediatric care due to the virus and many are now behind on shots. The government has now offered this care for free but time will tell if this lapse in vaccines had any effect positive or negative.
It may be negligible because of re-opening and now children are probably going to return to being cared for by their doctors but the effects of these months may not be apparent for a couple of years, if indeed it changed anything.

I don't believe you're going to see anything.
1. Many people are still getting their vaccines on time.
2. Most parents and practices aren't so makpid on giving the vaccine on a specific date. You get it pushed off for colds, ear infections, etc. It happens in more of a time range. Many parents play catch up before school.
3. Different states had different schedules/lockdowns, many of which are/were almost negligible in terms of children not going for their well visits.

I cannot imagine how a 2-3 month gap (if there is a gap in the larger population) will tell us anything.

SixOfWands

Wed, May 27 2020, 2:48 pm

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

I just wanted to add to this maybe for the sake of peace the pro vax can emotionally support the other side in that IF a child has had a terrible life threatening reaction to a vaccine and you cannot get an ME, we are with you and support you. Because this is not a rare case. And these parents would feel so much better if they knew somebody cared. Because they feel alone against the world. It is often the case. The laws are messed up with politics at the expense of these kids.

For those who think vaccines are the root of all evil and are fad-ists, we don't agree with anything you say.

For my part, I obviously and strongly believe that medical exemptions are good and necessary, and should be available to those with valid reasons.

amother

cornflower

Wed, May 27 2020, 2:58 pm

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

Of course I support medical exemptions in the case where a vaccine is truly dangerous to a child's health or life. I never in my entire life said otherwise or thought otherwise.

But I don't support the abuse of medical exemptions, or of exemptions in general. Every child who gets an exemption that they don't need is taking the place of a child who truly DOES need that exemption: in herd immunity, and also by making exemptions harder to get and less available for those in need. It is pure selfishness.

People who need medical exemptions should be able to get them easily from their family doctor, without anyone blinking, no questions asked, same-day process.

#BestBubby

Wed, May 27 2020, 10:46 pm

SOW: Autism is generally diagnosed at the age when kids get vaccines. It makes sense that they would be diagnosed near the time of vaccines. That shows nothing. http://www.tylervigen.com/spur.....tions

BB: Then why was autism very rare before 1990? Why is autism still extremely rare in populations that don't vaccinate?

There is no evidence that vaccines cause autism. There was a single study in which the results were falsified. Since then its been ITS THIMEROSAL. Take out the thimerosal. Autism still increases. ITS SOMETHING ELSE. Every time shown to be incorrect. Only to hear well, we know its the vaccines, let's make something else up.

BB: There was NOT a single study - that is FAKE NEWS. There are HUNDREDS of studies showing that the ingredients in vaccines cause brain damage.

SOW: People like you have blood on your hands. Every child born with severe ASD. You have essentially halted research into real causes and real things that can be done, forcing medical researchers to chase after conspiracy theories based on falsified evidence. Instead of real treatments to help. Time and time and time again. Blood.

BB: The only one who is stopping real research is the CDC that refuses to do a Vax vs UnVax Study - the Scientific Gold Standard. And it can be done retrospectively so no ethical issues. The CDC has blood on its hands for the millions of vaccine injured children.

SOW: REAL research shows the genetic component. That older parents are more likely to have a child with ASD. There may be environmental factors as well.

BB: Of course there is a genetic component. Not every child is vaccine injured. And there is environmental factors - vaccines being the main one.

SOW: Additionally, changing definitions and better diagnosis is a large factor in the increased prevalence. Back in the 50s and 60s, children on the less severe end of the spectrum were just considered a little odd. Now they're diagnosed. Even children on the more severe end were often misdiagnosed with other intellectual impairments.

BB: The original definition was non-verbal autism which was 1:5,000 in 1970 per the CDC.
Today 1:50 children are diagnosed with autism and 1/3 of those is non-verbal autism.
So the rate of NON-VERBAL Autism went from 1:5,000 in 1970 to 1:150 today.
and I am comparing apples with apples.

SOW: I generally don't care about your ridiculous conspiracy theories. But this one is hurting people.

BB: People who deny vaccine injuries and coerce vaccines are injuring millions.

#BestBubby

Wed, May 27 2020, 11:28 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

How many people actually saw it first-hand? Or how many people will now claim that it happened to their child? And your numbers - global, national, city-wide?

Autism is usually progressive-regressive. Meaning the child had some delays from the outset, but not enough to raise red flags, and then at some point the child began to regress as well. The regression is what alerted the parents, but the child was autistic from birth, it's just that the parents did not notice it until there was a regression.

For instance a child sometimes made eye contact but rarely, and didn't speak but understood everything, and was high-strung and easily annoyed. All of those are normal on their own, other than the rare eye contact, so it's unlikely that a parent would take their infant for a diagnosis. Then, let's say within the week after a vaccination, the parent notices that the child is starting to regress. This regression would've happened anyways but because of the timing the parent connects it to the vaccination, gets scared, and gets the infant diagnosed with autism. Boom! Parent can now say the child was normal but a vaccine caused their child to become autistic.

Or, in other instances, the child was not progressing normally in the emotional-social realm but because during the first year of life emphasis is placed more on the physical and motor development, the parents did not attach importance to the delayed development in "just one area." Then, at the 1-year well-child visit where the child received vaccinations, following the vaccination the doctor starts asking about words, social skills, emotional expression, etc. and tries to interact with the child, but fails. The parent now realizes that the child is not normal, and because the realization came during the same visit that the child received the vaccination (and cried, and the vaccination was traumatic for the parent), the parent's brain has now wired itself to connect vaccination with autism diagnosis.

Of course there are a few stories where there really was causation but on the whole, it's usually a horribly misinterpreted correlation. Even some of the causal incidents have underlying issues, such as a parent who brought her child in for a vaccination when the child had a fever.

However, parents - humans - naturally want to know why something happened, because knowing why means we can prevent it in the future, so when a child receives a diagnosis the first question is usually "why did this happen" "was it my fault" "what should I have done differently" and the parent's psyche searches for whatever will most easily remove the blame for the problem from themselves and place it on something outside themselves that is also easily controllable. Vaccines are good candidates for this, and they are given every few months during the first year, so they are easy to blame for many things that may or may not be connected to them.
Unfortunately the fact is that autism is genetic and autistic brains develop differently than other brains from gestation. Parents are not to blame, and do not have control over, whether their child is diagnosed with autism or anything else. Looking for who or what to blame won't solve the problem but it does cause other problems.

There are thousands of stories where a child was 100% normal development: walking, talking and smiling. Then vaccinated. Then high fevers and seizures. Then regressed into autism.

Thousands of parents all telling the same story. With before and after videos.

There is ZERO evidence that the child would have developed autism without the vaccine - that is a cover up THEORY. There are reports that autism is extremely rare in populations that do not vaccinate.

The only way to prove is to do a Vax vs UnVax Study which the CDC refuses to do.
Cornflower, can you explain WHY the CDC refuses to do a Vax vs UnVax study???