S/o vegetarians and pets and other related thoughts

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:19 am

Ora in town wrote:

That's the point on which I disagree.
I should be able to invite you for company without twisting into a pretzel to accomodate your needs...

Sure can. Don't invite a vegetarian for a meal, if that turns you into a pretzel.

Invite your company at a non meal time.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:20 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

It's a bit like a guest who would tell you that they eat no sugar whatsoever because they are on a diet.
You make efforts to accomodate them.
And then you see them go out and eat icecream. With sugar.

In such a moment, you feel stupid.

Except that its not.

The vegetarian didn't start to eat meat once she got a dog.

amother

Lilac

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:21 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

I don't think that you can draw this conclusion.
There is a marked for pets, pets are produced for the market, if no-one wants to own pets, less pets would be around, less animals would be slaughtered to produce dog food or cat food...

I mean at this point, anyway, we would have to discuss the basis of your philosophy.

Whether it is about animals being slaughtered...

Because you eating the veggies from the chicken soup or not will not have an impact on the number of chickens being slaughtered...

My pets were not produced for the market. You’ll find that a lot of ethical vegetarians are also against the sale of animals for the purpose of being pets. I would love if there were way way fewer pets in the world. My pets were rescued surplus animals that would have existed regardless of me owning them.

My not eating the chicken broth at someone else’s meal has less to do with reducing the amount of meat produced/purchased and more to do with my not wanting to put something I find disgusting in my body. So the comparison with what my pets do or don’t eat doesn’t make any sense. If I needed to eat meat for medical reasons or if I were starving I would eat it. But if you’re putting meat in literally everything just to spite me then it’s probably best that I don’t come over.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:21 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Sure can. Don't invite a vegetarian for a meal, if that turns you into a pretzel.

Invite your company at a non meal time.

OK.
but I will not exclude them from meals.
I just will not continue to twist into a pretzel.

And if it happens that they come for a meal and that they don't find anything to eat, they should say "today I made a great sacrifice for my cause" rather than "what a terrible host".

Because the onus of their philosophy is on them.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:24 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

So then you are just a picky eater, and not a vegetarian.
And you deserve even less accomodation...

Not that I think anybody should force anyone to eat anything...
but picky eaters - it's their problem.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:25 am

Ora in town wrote:

OK.
but I will not exclude them from meals.
I just will not continue to twist into a pretzel.

Okay.. But your decision not to twist into a pretzel should be because your tired of doing so - not because you would have to first "discuss the basis of the philosophy of your guest".

You can either do it, or you can't. Its not right to do a chesbon to see if you agree with the logical consistency in your guests choices.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:26 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Maybe you just shouldn't have people over for meals.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:28 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

That's a warped perception...
I don't prepare shabbes evening meal in a clay pot where I toss everything in just to spite vegetarians.
I do it because it's practical and I and my family and most guests like the result.

amother

Lilac

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:32 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

My philosophy is on me, just like it’s on me that I keep kosher.

Believe me I’ve been to weddings where the only thing I could eat was schnitzel tiras from the kids menu. The wedding wasn’t about me and I just ate afterwards and didn’t complain (except to my husband)

But if it were a family member or friend who couldn’t be bothered to make rice or one kugel that I could eat I’d question how important I am to them and whether they really wanted me there.

I have non religious and non Jewish family that do twist themselves into pretzels to accommodate kashrut. My parents kasher their oven for me when I come visit even though it makes no sense to them. That’s one of the ways they show their love.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:34 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

That's exactly the example I wanted to give you.
I eat kosher. I will not go to a place that is not kosher and expect them to kasher everything for me...

So clearly we have deep philosophical disagreement on expecting people to twist into pretzels to accomodate our needs...

Last edited by amother on Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:36 am; edited 2 times in total

amother

Lilac

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:38 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

You don’t have to accommodate vegetarians but just admit that you don’t understand it instead of acting like you have us all figured out.

I guess you’d be okay with someone telling you to pick the ham out of your salad and if you won’t you’re just a picky eater

amother

Lilac

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:41 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

My strong suspicion is that your parents and in laws keep kosher so you’ve never had to actually deal with this issue. I’m not talking about restaurants, I’m talking about people who love me and value my company.

amother

Peach

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:42 am

If someone preferred not to eat gluten (etc) because it made them bloated or constipated, etc, then I would make gluten free dishes and happily host them. But if someone had a severe allergy to gluten and would stop breathing if they ate a crumb, then I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable hosting them. I'm not sure I'd want to take on that responsibility.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:49 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Indeed. I absolutely understand.
I would not go to eat at a place that's not kosher.
Never, ever would I expect a host to kasher their place for me. That's crazy.

Last edited by amother on Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:50 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

you might be completely wrong about that.
In fact, I have lots of closed family who do not keep kosher...
And I also work in non-kosher environment and do lots of business trips.
The onus of kashrut is always on me.
And it is quite hard.

If you want to know details: I often have to go to places that have no kosher shops or restaurants. So I pack up my mini-kitchen and prepare my meals myself in the hotel room or suite.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 5:58 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Indeed. I absolutely understand.
I would not go to eat at a place that's not kosher.
Never, ever would I expect a host to kasher their place for me. That's crazy.

Most people are flexible enough to handle a vegetarian guest - so its a reasonable expectation as a guest.

Also reasonable as a host not invite back a guest they don't want to accommodate.

Totally unacceptable to encourage a guest to eat something because according to you their vegetarianism isn't valid.

amother

Lilac

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:03 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Indeed. I absolutely understand.
I would not go to eat at a place that's not kosher.
Never, ever would I expect a host to kasher their place for me. That's crazy.

Okay so at least you understand that it’s not pickiness that means I can’t pick out the chicken. It’s consistent with my beliefs. And it’s also consistent with my beliefs that I won’t eat the same food that my pets eat.

The only people that kasher their oven for me are my parents. It’s not something that I expect from anyone else. But I have had a lot of people ask me how they can make kosher food for me and I appreciate it even though my answer is “you can’t, I’ll bring my own”. I had a non Jewish friend order sealed food from Chabad for me at her wedding.

Accommodating kashrut is hard and yet I have had so many loving people try to make sure I have something to eat. Making a salad and putting chicken strips on the side is easy. Putting the chicken in the salad and mixing it up and asking the person you know is vegetarian to eat around it just seems so unnecessary and mean spirited.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:05 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I never said I wanted anyone to eat anything.
On the contrary. I make a point of letting guests serve themselves so that no-one should feel obliged to eat anything that is already on their plate out of courtesy.
I just stated that I would not provide a replacement.
And that they should not be angry about it.
Because the onus of their philosophy (or random pickyness) is on them.

Mayflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:07 am

I don't think you can really compare accommodating kosher and vegetarian food. It's much easier to have at least a salad or side dish that isn't fleishig than it is for someone not eating kosher to provide a kosher meal.

Amother ginger, I understand it's annoying for you if you are used to throwing everything in one pot, but most people serve more than one dish for shabbos... At least a salad, a kugel, vegetable side... So for most people, it really shouldn't be a big deal.

As for the vegetarian owning a pet, I really don't understand your take, sorry. Amother lilac explained it well...

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 6:12 am

Mayflower wrote:

As I told upthread:

This vegetarian would not eat fish, meat, but for health reasons would not eat uncooked vegetables or fruit, nor anything containing mono-sodium-glutamat, nor anything containing lactose, and sometimes other things popped up.

That's why I felt I had to twist into a pretzel to accomodate them, specially on shabbes noon, where I could have easily prepared an extra salad, but this would not help.

So I spent hours cooking beetroot (which I don't particularly like) and other vegges to make salads from cooked veggies...
I always had to cook extra eggs, to serve instead of fish for starters... so that they got protein...

Because if the vegetarian ate the main course - you could say: OK, no salads for them. Or no fruit salad for them.
But they had a problem with about every dish I would serve normally...
And I was limited in number of pots (hence the clay pot) and space on the shabbes plata...