S/o vegetarians and pets and other related thoughts

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:12 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

I never said I wanted anyone to eat anything.
On the contrary. I make a point of letting guests serve themselves so that no-one should feel obliged to eat anything that is already on their plate out of courtesy.
I just stated that I would not provide a replacement.
And that they should not be angry about it.
Because the onus of their philosophy (or random pickyness) is on them.

If you invite guests to your home, you should want as the host for them to feel comfortable at your table.... you seem to strongly disagree with this.

You want vegetarians to eat chicken soup because meets your criteria for vegetarian.

mochamix18

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:15 am

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

This is a sore subject for me. Back in the day I wrote a whole thread about my woes with DH insisting on inviting vegan guests for pesach (we're chabad.... which is limiting as it is without ruling out fish, meat and animal products....) Not only was the menu making a nightmare, I had 4 month old twins, a 2 year old and a 3 year old at the time...... and they're much more lax on hechsherim so 'adding to the table' was not an option. Looking back now, I don't know how I didn't crack up at the sheer thought of it. The vegans moved away but still tried to 'surprise' me by inviting themselves to our purim meal literally 2 hours before it started (I declined.... I don't do surprises.....)

Since then, I happily host vegetarians on a regular basis. I really do love to host and for health reasons I try to keep meat to a minimum anyway. But everyone has their limits....

Just put 1+1 together. Thought about you during the last year and was hoping you’re doing well.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:16 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

In general I make parve soups.

Sometimes I buy a whole chicken, cut it up, and boil the rest for a chicken soup. Guests and family love it.

The question is: will you take an extra, smaller pot, specially for the vegetarian, and make a parve soup for them?

The answer is: I did it. Although it was a problem with the number of parve pots availabe and a problem with the space on the plata available. I did it, but I resented it. Because they own a dog. So I won't do it in the future. Because they own a dog.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:22 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

The same philosophical question would arise if you hosted someone who is crazy makpid on one hechsher. And you went out of your way to find this hechsher, etc.

And then you see them eating something with a regular hechsher you could have provided very easily.

In such a moment, you feel stupid. Your efforts to find the hechsher seem worthless... just unnecessary work for nothing. "bracha levatala"...

Because you make efforts for them which they don't even make for themselves...
It's hypocrisy on their part.
I resent the hypocrisy.

That's my point.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:23 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

So most vegetarians would be fine with clean flieshik pots (and dishes).

regarding the bolded - Okay - but don't act if you were played for a fool.... this is on you, not your guest.

(I keep parve soup in the freezer).

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:24 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

The same philosophical question would arise if you hosted someone who is crazy makpid on one hechsher. And you went out of your way to find this hechsher, etc.

And then you see them eating something with a regular hechsher you could have provided very easily.

In such a moment, you feel stupid.

Because you make efforts for them which they don't even make for themselves...
It's hypocrisy on their part.
I resent the hypocrisy.

That's my point.

Except your attempts at parallels aren't working.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:26 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

So most vegetarians would be fine with clean flieshik pots (and dishes).

regarding the bolded - Okay - but don't act if you were played for a fool.... this is on you, not your guest.

As long as they don't have a dog, they're not a hypocrite.
So I am ready to accomodate them. And believe you me, it required efforts... it was not just an extra salad, as I stated above...
But in the moment they have their dog, and buy meat to feed their dog, they out themselves as a hypocrite.
And retroactively all the efforts to accomodate them become worthless...
Because they were a hypocrite from the beginning.
But I didn't know.

amother

Lilac

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:31 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

It sounds like there’s a lot more going on with your guests than just being vegetarian.

Like another poster mentioned I have a close friend who can’t eat nightshade (potatoes, tomatoes, peppers including black pepper) and that makes shabbat prep very hard for me. I do it for her but I wouldn’t do it for just anyone. I wouldn’t do it for someone who annoys me or who I don’t really want to invite.

You don’t have to invite anyone you don’t really want. If the person’s company isn’t worth the extra work don’t invite them. If you do invite someone you should try to accommodate but if they come up with last minute surprises that’s not your fault. You don’t need to make this about philosophy or dogs.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:31 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

So you will serve a cube of frozen soup to your vegetarian guest, when you don't have the extra pot available? Like popsicle soup?

And I don't keep frozen soups in the freezer, because I like soups fresh...

essie14

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:33 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

As I told upthread:

This vegetarian would not eat fish, meat, but for health reasons would not eat uncooked vegetables or fruit, nor anything containing mono-sodium-glutamat, nor anything containing lactose, and sometimes other things popped up.

That's why I felt I had to twist into a pretzel to accomodate them, specially on shabbes noon, where I could have easily prepared an extra salad, but this would not help.

So I spent hours cooking beetroot (which I don't particularly like) and other vegges to make salads from cooked veggies...
I always had to cook extra eggs, to serve instead of fish for starters... so that they got protein...

Because if the vegetarian ate the main course - you could say: OK, no salads for them. Or no fruit salad for them.
But they had a problem with about every dish I would serve normally...
And I was limited in number of pots (hence the clay pot) and space on the shabbes plata...

You are projecting your feelings about this ONE guest that you had onto the OP and all vegetarians.
You are 100% valid to feel frustrated by this former guest of yours. You are also valid to never invite that person again.
But most vegetarians that I know do not have such a limited palate.
OP sounds very reasonable and her SIL sounds interesting that she davka puts meat and chicken into every dish she serves when a family member who has one simple request comes for shabbat. the SIL also will not allow OP to bring her own food, which OP is happy to do.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:34 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

So you are open to guests of all sorts - so long as they aren't hypocrites - at your determination.

So basically - if you invite someone over - they say sure, but I'm a vegetarian can you accommodate - you grill them on their 'story' and life choices - before agreeing to cook for them.

This isn't normal.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:37 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Why wouldn't I have an extra pot?

I have no issue defrosting soup for a vegetarian guest if I'm serving chicken soup to those who want it. Soup freezes extremely well.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:38 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Oh, so you are OP...
So my answer to you is:
Don't be mad at your sister in law.
There might be more to it than meets the eye.
And the onus of vegetarianism (and not eating salad that touched the chicken) is on you, not on her.

This vegetarian guest who also could not eat raw veggies, etc. was a close friend.

But thinking back, I was too accomodating.
I should not have twisted myself like that for her.

I really wrecked my brain about getting her satiated. "I will cook rice with red cabbage extra, I will keep the shabbat plata specially for her, but the red cabbage is not enough, so I will put chestnuts in, so that she will feel satiated" "I need protein for her, so I will boil eggs and serve them as first courses, instead of the fish" "oh, right, she won't it the variatey of salads I serve for starters, so I also need to boil beetroot, so that she will have a salad for starters" "this time I will make lentil sooup, so at least she has lentils for protein"...

See, as a host, you want all guests to be happy and satisfied...

I sort of resent the double language of vegetarians who say "no, don't make any extra efforts for me", but then are resentful if they don't find enough to eat.

So here I could show you an example how much of an extra effort it can be to accomodate them.
And then there are other vegetarians on the block who accuse you of forcing vegetarians to eat meat...
They don't have a clue how far they are from the truth.
And they don't have a clue how entitled they are.
so don't be mad at your sister in law.

amother

Lilac

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:47 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

I am not the OP, I am a different person that accommodates a friend with nightshade allergies. There are a lot of people who are willing to accommodate others because we love them and value their company. My meat eating in laws always make vegetarian food for me.

As I said before it sounds like this guest was annoying to you and had a lot of demands aside from being vegetarian. No one here has said you have to invite them. Personally I think you shouldn’t. But inviting them and not providing food for them because you find their values hypocritical is really off behavior. If I knew a close friend felt this way about me I wouldn’t want to go back.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:47 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Why wouldn't I have an extra pot?

I have no issue defrosting soup for a vegetarian guest if I'm serving chicken soup to those who want it. Soup freezes extremely well.

Because that was the situation you were addressing. I told you it was a problem to accomodate the vegetarian with an extra soup just for them because I had no extra pots and no space on the plata.
And your answer was "but I have frozen soup"

So how would frozen soup help if the problem is that you have no pot to warm it in?
Will you serve it as a popsicle?

And how would frozen soup help if there is no frozen soup?

You really badly lack empathy. And you come over as totally entitled.

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:50 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

given this was a close friend - why didn't you just call her and say 'I'm stumped this week at what to prepare for you - can you send me a recipe".

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:51 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

I am not the OP, I am a different person that accommodates a friend with nightshade allergies. There are a lot of people who are willing to accommodate others because we love them and value their company.

As I said before it sounds like this guest was annoying to you and had a lot of demands aside from being vegetarian. No one here has said you have to invite them. Personally I think you shouldn’t. But inviting them and not providing food for them because you find their values hypocritical is really off behavior.

As I said: the guest was a good friend and not annoying.
They had lots of nutritional issues aside from being a vegetarian, but those issues would not have mattered if they weren't a vegetarian.

The fact that they eat no raw vegetables would not have caused any complications if they had eaten the cooked vegetables from the clay pot. Plus the whole main course.

So there was a combination of factors she could not change (health issues) and personal choices she could change (vegetarianism) that made it very hard and complicated to cook for her...

So if you have already the health factors, don't add the crazy choices! That's my opinion...

Last edited by amother on Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:56 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Ginger

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:54 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

given this was a close friend - why didn't you just call her and say 'I'm stumped this week at what to prepare for you - can you send me a recipe".

Oh yeah.

She loved complicated receipes with ingredients no-one could find, specially not in a kosher version.

She even gave me two cook books, vegetarian of course... Come to think of it, this might have been a "subtle" hint...

That's probably the reason why I spent so much time wrecking my brain!

That's, again, exactly what I mean.

They say "don't make complications for me", but in reality they expect you to go to crazy lengths to accomodate them...

amother

Lilac

Wed, Jun 17 2020, 3:56 am

Ora in town wrote:

Okay I guess for me it boils down to this: if a close friend were willing to accommodate my mishegoss if I didn’t own a dog but won’t because I do own a dog, and that makes me a hypocrite in their eyes, I would seriously question my friendship with that person.

Eta- to be clear, I wouldn’t question my friendship over them not being able to accommodate complicated dietary restrictions, but over their view of me as a hypocrite