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etky
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 Thu, Jul 02 2020, 3:11 am
| amother [ Lavender ] wrote: | | Wrong. They grew up in the shtetl in Europe and spoke yiddish. |
Um, so did the Bundists..
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 3:54 am
| LovesHashem wrote: | I’m the times of old half of the men learned and half went to battle. If none of the secular boys are learning Torah how can I send my son to battle when there needs to be more soldiers learning Torah?
If everyone in the country had to do mandatory gemara service I would gladly send my son to also do army service. In addition to the fact that our rabbanim say the atmosphere in the army is detrimental to spiritual health. If everyone was doing half learning and half army then there would be a better atmosphere.
Obviously some kids are suited for the atmosphere in the army and if one of my kids feel like a hesder program or some type of service would be good for him I want to do what’s best for my child.
The army has enough without the learners and they need to learners to protect too. There two armies here. | But we neither live in the time of old and this country is not run the way the Jewish people were back then, so there is literally nothing to compare :/
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essie14
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 3:58 am
6 pages of discussion before I could reply 
Yes, I am a Zionist. I have 1 DD who did SL and 2 sons currently serving in the IDF.
I live in Israel and believe that this is ראשית צמיחת גאולתינו.
I believe that all Jews should live in Israel.
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moonstone
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:12 am
Obviously a Zionist, 100%. It's very hard for me to grasp that so many Jews aren't Zionists. It's a position I can't understand and frankly find offensive.
Those of you who are against the government--should we live here without a government? Flawed as it is, how on earth would we function without one??? And there are plenty of charedim in that "evil" government, BTW!
And don't give me that BS about not needing an army to protect us. That is just naive, silly nonsense. And I love when people say their sons just aren't suited for army life. Who the heck is??? Nobody WANTS to be there, it's not exactly Club Med, but most guys manage! I am praying for the day when we have a government that finally does the right thing and does away with the yeshiva exemptions.
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LovesHashem
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:17 am
| FmrNewEnglander wrote: | "Kol hakavod.
Thank you for all their hard work, challenges they faced and all the risks they took, putting their lives on hold to protect our people and our land.
You must be very proud!"
Thank you. I am proud and in a constant state of nausea. (One son is still in. He learned in Yeshiva for 1 year and a half. Will go back to Yeshiva after the army. We live in the US. The other is living his life in Israel.)
A few points:
1. The army is not (or at least is no longer anti-religious). The army is kosher and shomer shabbat. There is even mehadrin kashrut in certain units.
2. I think the "spiritual worry" of kids going into the army is somewhat (not totally) overblown - especially "charedim." If a charedi kid goes to the army nowadays -- and becomes not religious -- 99% chance he wasnt religious when he went in. (Anecdotal -- of course -- but heard from two soldiers who served in charedi units....)
3.My kids went to the army because they cared about Israel and the Jewish People. Most lone soldiers do. Some are running away to be sure...not an easy place to run to.
4. We believe that Hashem rules the world. Yet we also go to doctors, wear seat belts, take medicine, exercise (ok -- maybe not exercise) and support the Israeli army and its soldiers. |
The army has served the chareidi soldiers rabbanut by mistake multiple times. I don't trust people who do that. I do think many kids are strong enough but some aren't at 18. In addition like I said before, the learning is serving this country - you are free to disagree.
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Success10
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:18 am
| moonstone wrote: | Obviously a Zionist, 100%. It's very hard for me to grasp that so many Jews aren't Zionists. It's a position I can't understand and frankly find offensive.
Those of you who are against the government--should we live here without a government? Flawed as it is, how on earth would we function without one??? And there are plenty of charedim in that "evil" government, BTW!
And don't give me that BS about not needing an army to protect us. That is just naive, silly nonsense. And I love when people say their sons just aren't suited for army life. Who the heck is??? Nobody WANTS to be there, it's not exactly Club Med, but most guys manage! I am praying for the day when we have a government that finally does the right thing and does away with the yeshiva exemptions. |
I don't think there is a single non-Zionist/Chareidi on this thread who said Israel shouldn't have a government or an army. All countries need those things. Israel is a country, just like America is a country, and England and France. And if I lived in those countries, I personally would not serve in the army unless I had no choice. Same with Israel.
B"H for now, my kids don't have to serve. And if one day that changes, and they do have to serve, so they'll serve. But they probably won't be passionate about it, or delude themselves into thinking it's a supreme mitzvah. It's very nice that they are protecting the Yidden in E"Y, that's wonderful. And the garbage men of E"Y are cleaning the streets of E"Y, a huge mitzvah. Are you mad at me that my kids are not all garbage men?
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LovesHashem
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:20 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | But we neither live in the time of old and this country is not run the way the Jewish people were back then, so there is literally nothing to compare :/ |
Hashem runs the world, not the government, and not the country. Most chareidi rabbanim hold that Torah learning is necessary to protect us and the soldiers.
I have to follow our Rav, and you can see from history that Baruch Hashem our army has won all wars wages against it - the army clearly doesn't seem to be in dire need of the learning boys and I think without those learning boys the army would fall apart.
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:30 am
| LovesHashem wrote: | Hashem runs the world, not the government, and not the country. Most chareidi rabbanim hold that Torah learning is necessary to protect us and the soldiers.
I have to follow our Rav, and you can see from history that Baruch Hashem our army has won all wars wages against it - the army clearly doesn't seem to be in dire need of the learning boys and I think without those learning boys the army would fall apart. | OK, not going to get into this argument  as we know it will go nowhere but in a circle.
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moonstone
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:33 am
| Success10 wrote: | I don't think there is a single non-Zionist/Chareidi on this thread who said Israel shouldn't have a government or an army. All countries need those things. Israel is a country, just like America is a country, and England and France. And if I lived in those countries, I personally would not serve in the army unless I had no choice. Same with Israel.
B"H for now, my kids don't have to serve. And if one day that changes, and they do have to serve, so they'll serve. But they probably won't be passionate about it, or delude themselves into thinking it's a supreme mitzvah. It's very nice that they are protecting the Yidden in E"Y, that's wonderful. And the garbage men of E"Y are cleaning the streets of E"Y, a huge mitzvah. Are you mad at me that my kids are not all garbage men? |
That is a very silly argument. There is no mandatory garbage man service.
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moonstone
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:35 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | OK, not going to get into this argument as we know it will go nowhere but in a circle. |
Yeah, can't win that one. The fact that people actually believe that the army would fall apart without yeshivas is mind-boggling.
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:36 am
| moonstone wrote: | | Yeah, can't win that one. The fact that people actually believe that is mind-boggling. | Yup, I completely agree, on both accounts.
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Jewishmom8
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:40 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Yup, I completely agree, on both accounts. |
I don't 
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yc
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:43 am
This is what they call a "go nowhere" conversation.
OP hope you are enjoying.
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:43 am
| Jewishmom8 wrote: | | I don't | Ok, and your point?
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Jewishmom8
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:49 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Ok, and your point? |
It was not some big point.
I just enjoyed how both of you were in strong agreement that you found my communities position mind boggling when to me it is pretty simple.
It just made me smile.
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etky
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:49 am
| yc wrote: | This is what they call a "go nowhere" conversation.
OP hope you are enjoying. |
Totally.
Some bored poster decided to toss an apple of discord into the forum in the hope that enough posters would bite and provide her with entertainment. 
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Jewishmom8
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:51 am
| etky wrote: | Totally.
Some bored poster decided to toss an apple of discord into the forum in the hope that enough posters would bite and provide her with entertainment. |
agreed
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:52 am
| Jewishmom8 wrote: | It was not some big point.
I just enjoyed how both of you were in strong agreement that you found my communities position mind boggling when to me it is pretty simple.
It just made me smile. | Oh, ok.
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amother
Linen
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Thu, Jul 02 2020, 4:57 am
| LovesHashem wrote: | I’m the times of old half of the men learned and half went to battle. If none of the secular boys are learning Torah how can I send my son to battle when there needs to be more soldiers learning Torah?
If everyone in the country had to do mandatory gemara service I would gladly send my son to also do army service. In addition to the fact that our rabbanim say the atmosphere in the army is detrimental to spiritual health. If everyone was doing half learning and half army then there would be a better atmosphere.
Obviously some kids are suited for the atmosphere in the army and if one of my kids feel like a hesder program or some type of service would be good for him I want to do what’s best for my child.
The army has enough without the learners and they need to learners to protect too. There two armies here. |
It's simply not true that in times of old, only half the men went to battle. I don't know where you got that. Moshe Rabbenu fielded a full army.
As far as learning keeping the country going, yeshivas have ten weeks off a year. The country doesn't collapse during bein hazmanim. Care to imagine what would happen if the army shut down for ten weeks?
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