Do you consider yourself a Zionist?

amother

Cerise

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:49 pm

sequoia wrote:

Um, you seem to misunderstand the terms. If you’re pro-Israel, you’re Zionist by definition.

Zionist = anyone who doesn’t think the State of Israel should be destroyed.

There’s a big difference between saying - I don’t support the creation of the State or support the Zionist government, but now that it’s here I believe its citizens should be safe and protected,

and - I believe we should dismantle the government and give back the land to the Arabs.

Both are technically anti-Zionist, but very different. Most chareidim (including myself) likely fall into category 1. I think it’s a big misconception about “anti-zionism”.

And loving the land of Eretz Yisroel does not equal zionist.

behappy2

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:50 pm

sequoia wrote:

Um, you seem to misunderstand the terms. If you’re pro-Israel, you’re Zionist by definition.

Zionist = anyone who doesn’t think the State of Israel should be destroyed.

If that's your definition of Zionism (don't agree) then the only ppl not Zionist would be the Niturei Karta.

Success10

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:52 pm

Yes, according to Sequoia, I'm a Zionist.

According to a different post of hers, I'm also in the same category as left-wing anti-Semites.

Last edited by Success10 on Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:53 pm

sequoia wrote:

Um, you seem to misunderstand the terms. If you’re pro-Israel, you’re Zionist by definition.

Zionist = anyone who doesn’t think the State of Israel should be destroyed.

That's the definition you've just now created.
now let's see what google says:
https://www.google.com/search?.....UTF-8
https://www.google.com/search?.....UTF-8

#Happymom

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:53 pm

Most of the charedi worlds anti-zionism stance stems from ignorance. They equate the term zionism, with the zionists of the last century, but nowadays, such ppl dont exist. Most charedim love EY and would never want it to be destroyed - they're all zionists, only they dont realise it!

#Happymom

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:55 pm

The old zionists believed that simply by living in EY, they are exempt from doing any mitzvos. Such zionists are not around anymore. The term zionist is still around, only its definition has changed.

amother

Bisque

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:56 pm

Explain to me, if one loves the land and thinks the people should be protected, but is against the government and is against the IDF, how would that work?
Does one just desolve the government and daven and learn Torah and assuming Hashem will take care of everything? Should we live there and give the country back to the British empire and have then rule us? What is your practical solution?

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:56 pm

#Happymom wrote:

So if someone will call himself Nazi will you say the same? well, duh ignorance! There is no hitler so no Nazi movements nowadays

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:56 pm

#Happymom wrote:

The old zionists believed that simply by living in EY, they are exempt from doing any mitzvos. Such zionists are not around anymore. The term zionist is still around, only its definition has changed.

I literally have never heard this before. Can you give me any source for such a definition?

amother

Cerise

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:58 pm

#Happymom wrote:

See my option #1 listed above. Once the State was created and the security of its citizens is at stake, it’s a whole different ball game.

And loving the land of EY has nothing to do with zionism. Yidden have felt that for thousands of years.

Success10

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:59 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

I don't think we should do away with the government or the IDF. Every country has a government and an army, and that's what Israel is, a country. A plain, normal country like every other country. It happens to be built on very holy land that I love living in. The country has nothing to do with the land it's built on.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 4:59 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

You know this is opening a can of worms, right? Wink

sequoia

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:00 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

That's the definition you've just now created.
now let's see what google says:
https://www.google.com/search?.....UTF-8
https://www.google.com/search?.....UTF-8

“Development and protection.” As opposed to destruction. Yup, literally what I said.

You in your frum worlds have no idea of the hatred out there — in schools, colleges, universities, organizations — for the existence of Israel in any form. Before you declare yourselves anti-Zionists, sit in on a few lectures in the Middle Eastern department in Columbia. Trust me, you’ll suddenly find yourselves defending Israel and its Jewish founders — yes, even the secular ones. Or you’ll just cry from the pure unadulterated hatred.

Success10

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:01 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

You know this is opening a can of worms, right? Wink

Well, whoever started the thread was probably hoping such a thing would happen.

#Happymom

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:02 pm

Can def look for a source, but that's what Ive always learnt/known. R' Yitzchak Berkowitz encouraged ppl to vote for the world zionist organisation, bec, we, charedim are the only zionusts left! We are the only ppl who attach any significsnce to this land.
And no, we do not have to agree with the govt and army to be a zionist.
To be a zionist, we love EY.

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:03 pm

sequoia wrote:

I won't, cause it's exactly what Hashem warned us will happen if we violate the 3 oaths...
So why don't you educate yourself a bit on a Torah'dig level.

etky

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:03 pm

#Happymom wrote:

The old zionists believed that simply by living in EY, they are exempt from doing any mitzvos. Such zionists are not around anymore. The term zionist is still around, only its definition has changed.

The 'old Zionists' didn't believe they were exempt from mitzvot - because they had no idea about mitzvot or, if they did, it was esoteric to them. They were secular Jews and their ideology was Socialism.

Success10

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:04 pm

sequoia wrote:

Yea, we know people hate Jews. They take out their hate on Israel because they think Modern State of Israel = Jews. That's not going to make me start supporting Israel.

And even if I did, they'd keep on hating us even more.

amother

Linen

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:05 pm

#Happymom wrote:

If you really believe that only charedim attach significance to the land, you need to get out more.