Do you consider yourself a Zionist?

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:05 pm

etky wrote:

The 'old Zionists' didn't believe they were exempt from mitzvot - because they had no idea about mitzvot or, if they did, it was esoteric to them. They were secular Jews and their ideology was Socialism.

Well the founders were Maskilim AKA OTD, so boy did they know about mitzvahs, they chose to throw it away.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:06 pm

#Happymom wrote:

Can def look for a source, but that's what Ive always learnt/known. R' Yitzchak Berkowitz encouraged ppl to vote for the world zionist organisation, bec, we, charedim are the only zionusts left! We are the only ppl who attach any significsnce to this land.
And no, we do not have to agree with the govt and army to be a zionist.
To be a zionist, we love EY.

I wasnt asking for a source for charedim being the actual zionists but rather that The old zionists believed that simply by living in EY, they are exempt from doing any mitzvos. I have never heard this before. What is your source?

amother

Beige

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:06 pm

Success10 wrote:

I don't think we should do away with the government or the IDF. Every country has a government and an army, and that's what Israel is, a country. A plain, normal country like every other country. It happens to be built on very holy land that I love living in. The country has nothing to do with the land it's built on.

This.

I don't think "creating" the Medina was אתחלא דגאולה.

Does that make me anti Zionist?

#Happymom

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:06 pm

Lots of the old zionists, were frum ppl, who, in their love for EY, listened to the maskillim who convinced them that living in EY exempts them from mitzvos.

Rappel

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:06 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

And loving the land of EY has nothing to do with zionism. Yidden have felt that for thousands of years.

.

כי מציון תצא תורה, ודבר ה' מירושלים.

I'm pretty sure that's the classic definition of Zionism. The term was co-opted a hundred years ago, but that doesn't change the fact that Judaism is inherently Zionistic.

Success10

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:08 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

This.

I don't think "creating" the Medina was אתחלא דגאולה.

Does that make me anti Zionist?

I think the term anti-zionist is reserved for extreme sects who would like to see the destruction of the modern state. I would call you (and me) neutral.

#Happymom

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:08 pm

Rappel wrote:

Yes! Yes!

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:10 pm

Success10 wrote:

I think the term anti-zionist is reserved for extreme sects who would like to see the destruction of the modern state. I would call you (and me) neutral.

Right, there is a big difference between an anti zionist and a jew who is not a zionist but not an anti zionist. There are many such jews.

sequoia

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:10 pm

Anyway, now that we’ve clarified that according to amother blush, Rav Kook was “uneducated in the Torah,” there’s probably not much more to say....

In case you’re interested:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik.....onism

Cause everyone is getting a little too carried away calling all Zionists frei or something...

etky

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:13 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

Well the founders were Maskilim AKA OTD, so boy did they know about mitzvahs, they chose to throw it away.

But their great grandchildren - members of the second and third aliyot - the real founders of the state and its institutions who arrived here in the first decades of the 20th century, were by then very far removed from mitzvot and very steeped in Socialism and its ideals.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:13 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

Well the founders were Maskilim AKA OTD, so boy did they know about mitzvahs, they chose to throw it away.

No, many of the chalutzim and founders of the state were socialists, not sure where you got that they were OTD. Thats actually ludacrist.

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:17 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

No, many of the chalutzim and founders of the state were socialists, not sure where you got that they were OTD. Thats actually ludacrist.

What does socialists mean to you? In my language that's called Maskilim

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:20 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

What does socialists mean to you? In my language that's called Maskilim

Exactly how etky answered.
Its like talking about oranges and frogs.

LovesHashem

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:22 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

Explain to me, if one loves the land and thinks the people should be protected, but is against the government and is against the IDF, how would that work?
Does one just desolve the government and daven and learn Torah and assuming Hashem will take care of everything? Should we live there and give the country back to the British empire and have then rule us? What is your practical solution?

I want a government. Obviously you can’t have a first world country without one. That doesn’t mean I don’t dislike ours and some of their policies. I do appreciate they keep us safe and build houses and roads and unemployment and birth grants and all other sorts of things we need to live.

I think there needs to be an army but I don’t want my children to be in it. I support us having an army of course.

Ideally the government should be run by frum people who are yirei shamayim. Ideal isn’t happening so what we have works and is pretty decent and I appreciate that.

zaq

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:28 pm

I believe in Zionism. I don't consider myself a "real" Zionist since I'm not doing anything active to promote Zionism aside from buying Israel bonds and contributing to JNF, Bnei Akiva, FIDV, FIDF and similar organizations. If I made aliyah or if I actively promoted aliyah to other people, lobbied the government on behalf of Israel, or engaged in other active Pro-Israel projects, then I would wear the label with pride.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:28 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

So you're just giving up.. Great

nope. Havent given up. But to have a normal discussion, two people need to be discussing the same thing and if they are not, how can their be a discussion. We dont agree on what the pioneers were. Thats big. So how can we continue the conversation really?

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:30 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

So then if your children shouldnt be in the army and abc's children shouldnt be in the army and joe shmoes children etc, why do your children get to not fight for the country they live in but other families fo have to send their children to the army.