 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
Success10
|
 Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:30 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: |
That's why I posted it.. I needed fun |
I knew it.
| |
|
| Back to top |
 5
|
|
amother
Blush
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:35 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | So then if your children shouldnt be in the army and abc's children shouldnt be in the army and joe shmoes children etc, why do your children get to not fight for the country they live in but other families fo have to send their children to the army. |
May we be zocha for the bitter truth to come to light...
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
|
amother
Lavender
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:38 pm
| etky wrote: | | The 'old Zionists' didn't believe they were exempt from mitzvot - because they had no idea about mitzvot or, if they did, it was esoteric to them. They were secular Jews and their ideology was Socialism. |
Wrong. They grew up in the shtetl in Europe and spoke yiddish.
| |
|
| Back to top |
4
|
shabbatiscoming
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:40 pm
| amother [ Lavender ] wrote: | | Wrong. They grew up in the shtetl in Europe and spoke yiddish. | And? Those things dont automativally mean they were frum.
| |
|
| Back to top |
6
|
LovesHashem
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:40 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | So then if your children shouldnt be in the army and abc's children shouldnt be in the army and joe shmoes children etc, why do your children get to not fight for the country they live in but other families fo have to send their children to the army. |
I’m the times of old half of the men learned and half went to battle. If none of the secular boys are learning Torah how can I send my son to battle when there needs to be more soldiers learning Torah?
If everyone in the country had to do mandatory gemara service I would gladly send my son to also do army service. In addition to the fact that our rabbanim say the atmosphere in the army is detrimental to spiritual health. If everyone was doing half learning and half army then there would be a better atmosphere.
Obviously some kids are suited for the atmosphere in the army and if one of my kids feel like a hesder program or some type of service would be good for him I want to do what’s best for my child.
The army has enough without the learners and they need to learners to protect too. There two armies here.
| |
|
| Back to top |
6
|
|
amother
Lavender
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:42 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | And? Those things dont automativally mean they were frum. |
Sure does. They grew up in frum home in Europe, grandfather's were rabbi's and they got swayed by the maskilim and threw away Torah and mitzvos. Read history.
| |
|
| Back to top |
4
|
FmrNewEnglander
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 5:56 pm
"Most of the charedi worlds anti-zionism stance stems from ignorance. They equate the term zionism, with the zionists of the last century, but nowadays, such ppl dont exist. "
I could have written this. 100% agree.
In fact, "classical" "non religious" Zionism is dying similar to the way Reform and Conservative is dying. Its not that there not non-religious Zionists -- but remember many at the beginning were communists -- for whom religion was a nullity. This is gone. Zionism has not replaced Judaism -- and no one who is left in Israel thinks it has. Using the word Zionism -- as it was meant in the 1880's is misleading and silly.
| |
|
| Back to top |
6
|
FmrNewEnglander
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 6:05 pm
"Kol hakavod.
Thank you for all their hard work, challenges they faced and all the risks they took, putting their lives on hold to protect our people and our land.
You must be very proud!"
Thank you. I am proud and in a constant state of nausea. (One son is still in. He learned in Yeshiva for 1 year and a half. Will go back to Yeshiva after the army. We live in the US. The other is living his life in Israel.)
A few points:
1. The army is not (or at least is no longer anti-religious). The army is kosher and shomer shabbat. There is even mehadrin kashrut in certain units.
2. I think the "spiritual worry" of kids going into the army is somewhat (not totally) overblown - especially "charedim." If a charedi kid goes to the army nowadays -- and becomes not religious -- 99% chance he wasnt religious when he went in. (Anecdotal -- of course -- but heard from two soldiers who served in charedi units....)
3.My kids went to the army because they cared about Israel and the Jewish People. Most lone soldiers do. Some are running away to be sure...not an easy place to run to.
4. We believe that Hashem rules the world. Yet we also go to doctors, wear seat belts, take medicine, exercise (ok -- maybe not exercise) and support the Israeli army and its soldiers.
Last edited by FmrNewEnglander on Wed, Jul 01 2020, 6:13 pm; edited 3 times in total
| |
|
| Back to top |
11
|
shabbatiscoming
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 6:06 pm
| amother [ Lavender ] wrote: | | Sure does. They grew up in frum home in Europe, grandfather's were rabbi's and they got swayed by the maskilim and threw away Torah and mitzvos. Read history. | Not every single family in pre ww2 europe was frum. Thats just not how it was.
| |
|
| Back to top |
5
|
zaq
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 7:36 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Not every single family in pre ww2 europe was frum. Thats just not how it was. |
Ah, the old everyone-in-Eastern-Europe-was-frum myth. Talk to people who actually lived in eastern europe pre-WWII and learn the truth. Pre WWII europe was alive with secular Yiddishkeit. Yes, even Eastern Europe. There were Jewish Communists, anarchists, writers, playwrights, Yiddish-language Shakespearean actors... consider Shalom Aleichem. His characters were Orthodox; he wasn't. Surely there were plenty of what we now call Orthoprax Jews as well--people who are outwardly observant but don't believe a bit of it. Why do you think so many people went OTD as soon as they landed in the US? Many couldn't wait to get here to throw off the shackles of religious observance. Yes, many surrendered most unwillingly to the grim reality of work-on-Shabbos-or-starve, but many were only too happy to leave behind that old-world religion.
Though Poland was the center of Jewish life and culture, it was by no means all observant Jewish life and culture.
And why should this be a surprise? Was there ever a time in our history after Maamad Har Sinai when ALL Jews lived according to the Torah? If so, why do we have so many prophets railing against idol-worshippers?
| |
|
| Back to top |
9
|
zaq
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 7:41 pm
| FmrNewEnglander wrote: |
3.My kids went to the army because they cared about Israel and the Jewish People. Most lone soldiers do. Some are running away to be sure...
. |
And by the same token, some guys run away to yeshiva. Not everyone in yeshiva is there purely for love of Torah.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
behappy2
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 7:46 pm
| zaq wrote: | Ah, the old everyone-in-Eastern-Europe-was-frum myth. Talk to people who actually lived in eastern europe pre-WWII and learn the truth. Pre WWII europe was alive with secular Yiddishkeit. Yes, even Eastern Europe. There were Jewish Communists, anarchists, writers, playwrights, Yiddish-language Shakespearean actors... consider Shalom Aleichem. His characters were Orthodox; he wasn't. Surely there were plenty of what we now call Orthoprax Jews as well--people who are outwardly observant but don't believe a bit of it. Why do you think so many people went OTD as soon as they landed in the US? Many couldn't wait to get here to throw off the shackles of religious observance. Yes, many surrendered most unwillingly to the grim reality of work-on-Shabbos-or-starve, but many were only too happy to leave behind that old-world religion.
Though Poland was the center of Jewish life and culture, it was by no means all observant Jewish life and culture.
And why should this be a surprise? Was there ever a time in our history after Maamad Har Sinai when ALL Jews lived according to the Torah? If so, why do we have so many prophets railing against idol-worshippers? |
A lot of frum teenagers got caught up in Zionism, Socialism, Communism...
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
dancingqueen
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 7:47 pm
[quote="SixOfWands"[b]]How can you be a Zionist and be opposed to the IDF? Israel survive without a military?
I of course understand not wanting your children in the army. Who wants their children in danger? But beyond that, I don't get.[/quote]
I don’t think you can. I don’t understand how any Jew could be opposed to the IDF but that’s a different story.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
|
zaq
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 7:54 pm
| behappy2 wrote: | | A lot of frum teenagers got caught up in Zionism, Socialism, Communism... |
excuse me. One of these terms doesn't belong with the others. I'd appreciate it if you didn't equate them.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
|
behappy2
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 7:56 pm
| zaq wrote: | | excuse me. One of these terms doesn't belong with the others. I'd appreciate it if you didn't equate them. |
I'm not dissecting. There were frum Zionist groups and non frum Zionist groups.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
PinkFridge
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:12 pm
| amother [ Lavender ] wrote: | | Wrong. They grew up in the shtetl in Europe and spoke yiddish. |
Dry Bones just had a (painful) series about the early Zionists. I'm sure they spoke Yiddish, and they also propagated "kochi v'otzem yadi" to the nth. Besides Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi. Unfortunately the quote featured for him was NOT "libi bamizrach."
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
zaq
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:16 pm
| amother [ Lavender ] wrote: | | Sure does. They grew up in frum home in Europe, grandfather's were rabbi's and they got swayed by the maskilim and threw away Torah and mitzvos. Read history. |
Nobody got "swayed by maskilim" who didn't want to be. And where do you think the maskilim et.al came from? They didn't arise yesh me-ayin or land here from Mars--they had observant ancestors, too. Maybe parents, maybe grandparents. Pretty much anyone who still identifies as a Jew is only a generation or three removed from an observant home. Exceptions may be (possibly) very prominent families that are not observant but are Jewish because everyone knows they are. I would have said the Rothschilds as an example, but I'm not so sure any of them is in fact still Jewish (or prominent, for that matter). Time was that Rothschild daughters were allowed to marry out but sons had to marry MOT's. Eventually that went out the window.
Everyone's grandfather was a rabbi? Arrant nonsense. Most Jews in the pale of settlement were poor tradespeople or peddlers and spent most of their energy trying to survive. Becoming a rabbi was a luxury few could afford, and it could take the combined contributions of an entire village to send a promising boy to yeshiva in the big city. Most of the time boys had to leave cheder to try to earn a living. True, the sheer volume of Torah learning was enormous, but recall that the vast majority of world Jewry was living there. That included ignorant masses, nonreligious jews and antireligious jews as well as the characters in all the sentimental sepia-toned photos and paintings you find in certain calendars.
| |
|
| Back to top |
5
|
dancingqueen
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:30 pm
| Rappel wrote: | Yes, of course.
And before you all jump on me: That doesn't change the fact that we work hard each day. DH served, and I did sheirut leumi. Our children will probably serve.
But do I think the army is necessary to keep the Jewish people in the land, or the state in existence, so long as G-d wills it? No way. It's just the tool He's currently using as a medium for His acts. It's as replaceable as any mashal, as is the state. |
But the world works with derech teva, and obviously part of the hishtadlut of why country is to have an army. Why would Israel’s army be something controversial in that context?
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
dancingqueen
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 8:33 pm
| Success10 wrote: | | I don't think we should do away with the government or the IDF. Every country has a government and an army, and that's what Israel is, a country. A plain, normal country like every other country. It happens to be built on very holy land that I love living in. The country has nothing to do with the land it's built on. |
If not for the government and the army, you would not be able to live there safely.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
|
amother
Beige
|
Wed, Jul 01 2020, 10:18 pm
| dancingqueen wrote: | | If not for the government and the army, you would not be able to live there safely. |
כוחי ועצום ידי
(Maybe my spelling is off, sorry)
I don't agree with the above.
| |
|
| Back to top |
4
|
| Related Topics |
Replies |
Last Post |
|
|
Please dont do everything by yourself!!!
|
22 |
Wed, Apr 03 2024, 9:54 am  |
|
|
S/O how much did you spend on yourself?
|
51 |
Mon, Apr 01 2024, 7:46 pm |
|
|
How little did/will you spend on your kids/yourself...?
|
11 |
Sun, Mar 31 2024, 6:42 pm |
|
|
What gift would you buy yourself for $300
|
70 |
Fri, Mar 29 2024, 2:49 pm |
|
|
Do you consider where family when you choose where to live?
|
13 |
Sun, Mar 24 2024, 8:55 am |
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
