How come no one stopped the abuse?????

notshanarishona

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 8:09 am

#BestBubby wrote:

I thought we don't excuse abuse. But we can't "judge" the mothers who put their
babies in danger.

We don’t excuse abuse. None of these mothers willingly put their kids in danger . They did not know. And I don’t think it’s true at all that it’s common knowledge that maons= Abuse. It 100% depends on the place.
Just to give a dan lekaf zechus example, I was post partum when I developed a dangerous staph infection and was hospitalized on iv antibiotics for months. My husband needed to work and we didn’t have family so we needed to send out my baby his whole working day. I definitely looked well into the babysitter and make sure to get reviews and had someone drop in on them periodically.

amother

Sienna

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 8:22 am

notshanarishona wrote:

Yes, but a maon is quite, quite different.
Firstly, you have no idea, in whos hands you will be entrusting your child in, for the whole day. 7am til 4pm.
And, there is a huge turnover, your baby might have someone half decent for 3 months, and then someone terrible for 2 months, and then someone short tempered for 4 months... you have no idea!!

And a babysitter is in a house, it's much more homey and chilled than sending your baby to an institution with barely any toys/space for them to move and where they must adhere to the same schedule as 5 other babies their age,

In a babysitter, there is generally varying ages, so diff eating and sleeping times. In a maon, all the kids in the group, must do everything the same time. So your baby will have to wait til it's eating time, and then wait til it's his turn to eat. And do 3 month olds wait patiently? No, they scream. And in a maon, no one cares,

Can I say that maon = abuse? I cant, bec I've only been to 3 and they were all terrible, but amother Ruby's been to 15, and she says they're no diff.
Can you find someone who works in a maon and can tell you that the kids are loved and looked after????

amother

Coffee

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 8:30 am

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

I have friends who worked in a maon and they loved the kids and did their best to look after them.

But there still weren't enough loving arms to go around, so babies still waited more than was good for them and still screamed and screamed when they didn't get what they needed when they needed it.

It hurt my friends to hear the screaming but they just didn't have any choice. If someone walked in to chat they said, "do you mind feeding this baby? He needs to eat but I'm getting this other baby to sleep." They did their best. It's never going to be enough.

ora_43

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 8:40 am

#BestBubby wrote:

If I were dictator I would outlaw mothers working if their kids are under two.

I would give a stipend.

When children are verbal they are much safer from abuse/neglect.

One never knows with babies.

While this level of abuse is hopefully rare, I believe it is damaging to babies to
be so many hours even in a "good" daycare.

(I'll duck the tomatoes...)

I can't believe this sexist nonsense got 8 upvotes on a women's site.

And this from a poster who claims to be all for Republican values... Barring mothers, specifically, from hiring people to watch their kids would be the opposite of small government, or freedom to do business.

ora_43

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 8:45 am

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

In bad maons there's high turnover. In the local maon there's been one staffing change in the past three years or so, when one of the ganenot had a medically complicated birth and had to go on leave for a few months.

Quote:

Can you find someone who works in a maon and can tell you that the kids are loved and looked after????

Yes. I have multiple friends who work or have worked in maons, and say the kids were well cared for.

Not all maons are great, but not all are terrible or abusive, either. I think you're being too quick here to assume your experience is universal. Naturally, the daycare centers that hired you when you were just starting out were more likely to be places with high turnover and inexperienced staffers - that's the kind of place that has frequent openings, and takes on people with no experience.

Ema of 5

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 8:47 am

ExtraCredit wrote:

Omg! Can’t watch the complete thing either. Too heartbreaking! Seems like 2 insane morahs there. Really hope they rot in prison for life!

Rappel I’m not sure what your question is? Both morahs look equally abusive and the poor kids are too young to repeat. It obviously leaked somehow, hence the hidden cameras.

Read the article- it seems NINE people have been indicted, I’m not sure if that includes the owner.
Know what else I noticed in the article? The owners lawyers didn’t DENY knowledge or wrongdoing on the owners part, they just said she wasn’t there at the time and therefore should be treated differently....hmmmm

banana123

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 8:49 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

Nine people have been ARRESTED.

The owner, her husband, and seven sayaot.

The indictments are expected to be filed on Sunday.

The owners' lawyers initially denied wrongdoing and knowledge of wrongdoing, but police said the footage shows otherwise. After a couple times, the lawyers' changed their stance and just said that in the footage released the owners are not shown doing anything wrong.

ra_mom

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 8:58 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

I’m unable on open the link. Can someone describe what is going on in he video you are all discussing?

You see a very clean, neat, organized day care. You can see a tight schedule with kids all going down to nap at the same time. The floor being mopped while the kids are resting.
And you watch the teachers swipe kids with a wipes package, laughing while they do, take off their ballet shoe and hit kids with it, bop them on the head, yank children down to lay on their cot, pick them and slam then back down, the mopping being stopped to deliberately hit a child, a child being lifted by their hair... Crying

Last edited by ra_mom on Thu, Aug 13 2020, 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total

ora_43

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 9:03 am

As for the original question - keep in mind that this isn't a random group of people. This is a group of people who were all hired by the same person, the owner of the maon.

Abusive owner -> a hiring process that prefers abusive people (whether intentionally or not) + zero measures to stop abuse -> abuse-friendly atmosphere -> non-abusive staff quitting -> boss hiring more abusive people...

I can see how it could happen.

Those poor kids Sad

. And those poor parents. Let's not pretend that this couldn't happen to us, because *our* precious children will never go to daycare. Sure, there are lessons to be learned here, there are ways to try to prevent this kind of thing - but when it comes down to it there's no way to be completely sure your child won't be harmed by cruel or abusive people.

And on a different note - please try to remember that women working benefits all of us, not just the women in question and their "lifestyle." If all or even a majority of mothers to young kids decided to stop working in order to be home with their babies, the staffing crisis would be ENORMOUS. Seriously, you have no idea the type of disaster you're asking for here. 90% of elementary school teachers are women. 87% of social workers are women. About 83% of para-medical graduates (nurses, physical therapists, etc). And many of those are mothers to young kids.

Even in more male-dominated fields like business management, women are a solid 34%+.

So how about instead of a "solution" that sees us losing a big chunk of the workforce; sending hospitals, clinics and the entire school system into a tailspin; and setting back gender equality by a good 100 years, we find a way to make daycares less abusive?

Cameras. Outside supervision. Higher salaries for workers, and better conditions (eg high staff-to-child ratios). Better screening. Systems for reporting suspicions of abuse easily and anonymously, and getting a fast response.

The solutions exist, we just need to care enough to implement them.

(No system will prevent 100% of abuse, but we can at least get close.)

ora_43

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 9:08 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I think you're very naive.

I think you're very quick to accuse a huge swath of workers of abusive behavior. Does it really sound reasonable to you to say that most of the tens of thousands of daycare workers in the country are abusive?

Do you really think it's a coincidence that these stories keep popping up in places like Ramle and southern Tel Aviv, and not Denya or Herziliya? I'm not claiming that money fixes everything when it comes to abuse, but it really is safer to have a high staff-to-child ratio, experienced staff with ties to the community, and frequent oversight.

banana123

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 9:14 am

ora_43 wrote:

Very true.

Quote:

Those poor kids Sad

This discussion wasn't about children being randomly harmed by cruel or abusive people.
It's about cruelty and abuse on a daily basis, in a place where parents send their children six days a week, for about 10.5-11 months of the year - when the children cannot even express themselves yet.

Quote:

So how about instead of a "solution" that sees us losing a big chunk of the workforce; sending hospitals, clinics and the entire school system into a tailspin; and setting back gender equality by a good 100 years, we find a way to make daycares less abusive?

Cameras. Outside supervision. Higher salaries for workers, and better conditions (eg high staff-to-child ratios). Better screening. Systems for reporting suspicions of abuse easily and anonymously, and getting a fast response.

The solutions exist, we just need to care enough to implement them.

(No system will prevent 100% of abuse, but we can at least get close.)

Cameras aren't that expensive to operate. And because there were cameras, we can prosecute these abusers. But, cameras do not prevent abuse.

Outside supervision will mean that parents pay more. Higher salaries and better conditions also mean parents will pay more for the childcare. That reduces how much the parents are taking home each month, and parents - from what I've seen - are not willing to pay that extra money. They think someone else should foot the bill, but whenever you ask who they don't know, and if you ask whether they're willing to pay higher taxes, they say no.

Better screening is a nice idea, but remember that it will cost money, and that it will reduce the number of potential employees, so that many maonot do not have enough staff, which means that they won't be able to take as many children, which means that more parents will be left without childcare.

Systems for reporting abuse - that's a good idea. Remember that there needs to be some way to ensure that people cannot file false complaints - already a big problem. But yes, this is something that might help and something that can work, if the details are properly ironed out.

Last edited by banana123 on Thu, Aug 13 2020, 9:22 am; edited 2 times in total

banana123

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 9:18 am

ora_43 wrote:

Herzliya
https://news.walla.co.il/item/3237230

Rosh Ha'ayin (not Denya but definitely not Ramle or southern Tel Aviv)
https://www.ynet.co.il/article......html

Rishon Letzion:
https://rishon.mynet.co.il/loc.....88349

ora_43

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 9:48 am

banana123 wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think that a child's ability to talk prevents abuse? It doesn't. I mean, sure, yes, it's one line of defense, but that's it. There's no vast moral divide between someone who sends her 2-year-old to maon and hopes and prays the staff are as nice as they seem to be, and someone who sends her 6-year-old to school and hopes and prays the staff are as nice as they seem to be.

Quote:

Cameras aren't that expensive to operate. And because there were cameras, we can prosecute these abusers. But, cameras do not prevent abuse.

Cameras do prevent abuse. People who know they're being filmed are less likely to act abusively. If someone does act abusively, and is prosecuted, that prevents all potential future acts of abuse by the same person.

Quote:

Outside supervision will mean that parents pay more.

Well, yeah. All of the things I suggested would cost more, either in money or time or both. You don't get something for nothing.

banana123

Thu, Aug 13 2020, 9:56 am

ora_43 wrote:

First of all, as they get older they become less vulnerable and the ways they can be abused become less. Second, being able to express yourself means that you can report the abuse early on, instead of suffering for months or years until someone noticed.

Quote:

The owner, who was filmed ignoring abuse and abusing the children herself in some instances, gave permission for the cameras to be installed, possibly asked for them to be installed (I forget if she asked), and called the parent who'd installed them in so that he could fix a technical issue on one of them. Yet both she and her husband are facing charges.

Also, IIRC, she said that at least some of the sayaot in question did in fact know about the cameras.

Cameras might provide some deterrence but on a daily basis, 9 hours a day, no one can keep self-control if the only thing stopping them from abusing someone is the thought that someone *might* notice one day and *might* look at the camera and they *might* face charges.

Quote:

Well, yeah. All of the things I suggested would cost more, either in money or time or both. You don't get something for nothing.

Exactly, which is why they're not such reasonable suggestions.

There are very few solutions - if there are any solutions at all - which will not cost parents more money. So until parents are willing to pay for better childcare, no, I don't see a way to fix this problem.

Also, in the middle of a crisis like coronavirus, I don't know where even the government would get the funds to implement changes like these, on a national scale. Note that the bill under question right now would simply increase punishment for abusive care providers - it wouldn't actually prevent anything.

Last edited by banana123 on Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total