How come no one stopped the abuse?????

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 4:21 pm

Good point about LMM's times. I read that biography, too. I know her son was most likely a sociopath. But her grandson spent his life cycling in and out of jail, (the biographer didn't give the details, just said it was too horrific) so I can't imagine the way he was raised didn't affect him later in life.

Lots of women lived in genteel poverty, that's why the fate of a single woman was so desperate. And someone married to a ne'er do well, yet had children to feed, was even more desperate.

amother

Rose

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 5:22 pm

This conversation is ridiculous.

If you want, make a spin-off on the history of women working.

Fact is, in today's day and age most frum families need 2 incomes. Most women must work. I'm not saying that every woman does work or must work from 7-4, but most women are working some hours, irrelevant of Kollel.

So instead of carrying on about whether women should be working, let's accept the fact that most women are, and see what we can do to improve the quality of daycare.

ETA: I don't get one thing. My daughter is right now 18 months. It wouldn't be good for my sanity or hers for her to be home all day. She loves going to playgroup till 2 pm. She loves seeing other kids, she loves the stimulation.

So unless we are discussing the small population of women who have kids close enough in age that they always have a tiny baby at home, why shouldn't a women work once her child reaches the age where it would be beneficial for them to attend playgroup for part of the day?

(Unless I'm mistaken and most children are happy to be home with their mother all day until age 3?)

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 5:50 pm

Yes, many kids under 3 are happy to stay at home.
And, plenty of women are stretched way too thin nowadays with getting kids off to school, working all day, coming home to deal with homework, supper, housework, and bedtime. Not to mention errands, appointments, paperwork and grocery shopping. I don't think it should be politically incorrect to say that.
However, you are correct that this is the current state of affairs and not likely to change anytime soon.

doodlesmom

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:56 pm

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

For your daughters sanity being home with her mom who gives her attention and stimulation and having a play date here and there Is much better than playgroup. Just saying....you need to be willing to do it though.

amother

Ruby

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 1:14 pm

amother [ Rose ] wrote:

A lot of kids do enjoy playgroup. I think sending at around age 2 isn't necessarily so bad. There'd more abuse with the younger children. If an 18 month year old is ignored most of the days she will still enjoy the attention of her peers. A 1 year old not so much. Just research a good caregiver.

FranticFrummie

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 1:45 pm

When I was growing up, the husband was supposed to bring home 100% of the income needed to cover family expenses. The wife could get a job if she wanted, but never at the expense of her children. A lot of moms got caught up in MLM sales like Avon, Mary Kay, Tupperware, and Nutrilife. Any money they made (if any), was spent on treats and luxuries.

My mom didn't go to work until my sister and I were old enough to be alone in the house after school, and I knew how to make a decent dinner. She taught at a local community college in the afternoon, and we were never alone for more than 45 minutes.

My dad considered her job a "hobby" that let her get out of the house once in a while. He never depended on her income to balance the budget, and he would be deeply ashamed to ask her for any of her money. To do so would be to admit that he was failing as a provider. Even worse, my mom's parents would look down on him as a failure.

We were definitely lower middle class, and lived quite frugally, so it's not like we could afford an "easy life". My mom could make a pound of hamburger into a week's worth of meals. We never had a house cleaner or designer clothes. Having a career and leaving the kids with someone else wasn't an option. I don't think it even crossed their minds. It just wasn't done.

banana123

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 2:22 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

OMG this is heartbreaking, Ruby. Parents need to be aware. Israeli imas, you should start a petition and reach out to your elected officials.

What should the petition say?

They pushed for a third staff member for 3yos and got it.
They pushed for something to stop abuse and a law mandating cameras and some other measures that are supposed to help but don't really.

What do you want to have happen? A petition asking for abuse to be banned? It's already banned.

Now I think childcare workers are supposed to undergo first aid training and they are starting to check criminal records. Not sure when that will go into effect, though.

And it still doesn't stop abuse and neglect.

What should a petition say? Israel's birth rate is far too high to allow any meaningful steps to be taken without either significantly raising taxes (we're already at 17% sales tax, and no one wants income tax raised either), or significantly raising the cost of daycare, which no parent who sends to daycare will put up with.

Something's gotta give and right now what gives is children's safety.

banana123

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 2:23 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Yes it is. Unfortunately no one seems to care here. The police in my city are currently stopping cars this week and making up that people don’t have seatbelts or the car has an issue and writing up tickets. When asked to watch back the video the police claim it’s not allowed. There’s been so many issues with the city. Local things happen, right now there are Palestinians allowed to live in the building they are working on because of corona. After work they terrorize people in the park and steal. The police don’t even bother coming out. If you call the city for issues it’s not better either.

All I can do it talk about my experiences to help others be more cautious

OMG

banana123

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 2:27 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

I think extended maternity leaves like they have in Europe are ideal. In some countries it goes up to two years.
Of course ideally the mother should take care of her baby until they are older and can go to kindergarten in my opinion, but of course that's not always possible.

You can only do that if you have a low birth rate. The long parental leaves are intended to incentivize having children.

If your birth rate is positive - over 2.1 - it gets much more difficult to offer long parental leaves.

FranticFrummie

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 2:49 pm

banana123 wrote:

So you get a one year maternity leave. (Even though a lot of other countries have a 2 year maternity leave.)

You're a frum woman, and your rav won't let you have BC, or your DH wants a huge family, or you want a huge family too. Your DH didn't learn much English or math in school, he's in kollel, or he's chronically underemployed making very little money and no advancement possibilites.

If you are getting pregnant every year or so, you'll only be on the employment market a few months before you have to start taking leave for doctor's appointments, and then another year off once the baby is born. And that's assuming that you have really easy pregnancies. If you are on bed rest, you're not working, and then there's that year off again.

When are you supposed to be making the money that will generate the employment taxes that are supposed to be subsidizing all of this maternal leave? How are you going to even feed this growing brood, if you constantly have to work?

Slightly off topic, but still related, is that I think it's horrible that women who want to do extended breast feeding have to give that up because they have to go back to work. Then they have to deal with expensive formula as well as daycare expenses, and both the mother and baby suffer the loss of bonding time, as well as the nutritional benefits of nursing.

It's barbaric that women have to choose between giving their baby the food that Hashem in His wisdom created - or going to work for money.

(This is not a slam on women who cannot breast feed. I just don't think women should be forced to choose - feed this baby, and let the rest of the kids starve because we can't afford groceries.)

amother

Coffee

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 3:05 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

It is horrible, for mothers, babies, society, and public health, that so many mothers have to wean earlier than they would have liked simply in order to go back to work. Even when mothers don't wean they are usually forced to add formula. But, breastfeeding is not valued in Israel. So much so, that a law that would have forced hospitals to ask the mother's permission before giving her newborn formula, and get her signature for that, fell flat. Instead, if you ask the nurse to watch your baby for ten minutes while you shower, you may come back to find the baby drinking formula. And there's no legal issue with that, regardless of what you've requested.

FranticFrummie

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 3:08 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Ugh, it's so horrible. It's definitely the kibbutz mentality. Get back to work, comrade!

Children who were raised in communal nurseries all have very severe mental illnesses now. Several have written books about how the attachment disorders, anxiety, and depression have ruined their lives. They are unable to bond with anyone. It's tragic. Crying

Success10

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 4:23 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I think breastfeeding is highly valued in Israel, more than America, that's for sure. In the hospital, they do not release you and your baby until you have either taken a small BF course in the hospital, or have spoken one on one to a lactation consultant, even if you have made it clear you have no plans to nurse. Also, of course they are not allowed to give your baby a bottle without your consent. You fill out a form with your wishes regarding bottles soon after birth.

Iymnok

Sat, Aug 15 2020, 4:26 pm

Success10 wrote:

Is this recent? Neither hospital I went to had that.