5 Year old DS not afraid of punishment

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#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:26 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

We know how they turned out. Self-hating, anxious, depressed, self- medicating, no real relationship with parents. Everything covered up swept under the rug for the sake of obedience because parents know better and are always right because they are a higher number in age. Laugh

Children raised in the no punishment era have much higher mental illness, less likely to be self supporting, more prone to violence / bullying, more crime, more divorce or never married - than children raised in previous times with traditional upbringing.

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:28 pm

crust wrote:

I only asked for how the ones raised with this type of punishment ended up.

Do they love their parents?
Can they give love to their children?
How are there overall relationships with people?

Yes, overwhelming majority of people who were born before 1970 love their parents,
love their children and have good relationships with other people.

crust

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:29 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Yes, overwhelming majority of people who were born before 1970 love their parents,
love their children and have good relationships with other people.

I guess we live on different planets.

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:37 pm

crust wrote:

I guess we live on different planets.

Do you read imamother and see how many parents are complaining about children
who HIT them, defy them, curse, name-call and insult their parents? And are violent
with their siblings?

Do you think we had all this out-of-control behavior in previous generations?
kids who would "trash a room" if they were put in time-out?

Do you think you are smarter than HASHEM who said in the Torah that Punishment
(including Corporal Punishment) is necessary????

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:47 pm

See article about the Millennial Generation: https://pro.psychcentral.com/e.....tion/

Who is the Most Narcissistic Generation?

Millennials are known as the most narcissistic generation of our time. The overindulge attention, special treatment for nothing special, and excessive emotional tolerance that parents gave their kids have not resulted in a more productive generation but rather one that seems apathetic. It’s a toss-up between who is more confused: Millennials because the world does not work the way they envision it should or other generations because they don’t understand how Millennials think.

How did this happen? Some research has suggested that the lack of severe economic downturn during the childhood of millennials is to blame. Other hypothesis points the finger at parents who reinforced the idea that their child was so special that they didn’t have to adhere to the standards of society. While others believe society is responsible because every child received an award even when they came in the last place.

amother

Orchid

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:59 pm

Op, my 5 year old is like that too. She has a relatively mild case of pandas.
Impulsively is a huge issue.
My older one has a worse case of pandas.

It took YEARS to get a diagnosis. Until she didn't have loud vocal ticks in middle if class noone believed me that someone wasn't right. Both my children behaved themselves like little angels whenever they were away from home.
But a soon as we started treating then for pandas 3/4 of their behavioural issues disappeared. Also, I believe school is too much for these young children, the long says and the pressure they get to conform....
Now with the kids home during Corona time, I'm at all not excited to send them to school again! I love having my kids around whereas before treatment I DREADED their bus driving up and dropping them back off at home..... they are the sweetest children I ever encountered. So kind, gentle, sassy at times and so full of personality.

My point, I have dealt with children who have lots of issues and I've gone down many routes....

DO NOT put a 5 yo child in timeout for 30 minutes. Please don't! That is waaay too long. It'll just get them into a state of despair.
I believe a little potch (NOT out of anger or frustration) is a million times better than that.

Once at my whits end out of frustration I yelled/asked my kid, "what should I do to get you to understand that this is unacceptable behaviour?" her answer? (Although it was more a rhetorical question and I wasn't expecting an answer. Lol) "A potch." When I asked why she said "cuz it's quick and painless" (and useless lol)

Please check out the nurtured heart approach. It is amazing.

Honestly, your child seems bored and underestimulated.

I am not in your house, but I can share how mine is (and its far from perfect. But constantly getting better)
We have locks on all bottom kitchen cupboards for the toddlers safety. Were adding gates to the entrances to the chicken because at 14 mo, the baby/toddler easily drags chairs or toys and gets into the sinks and drinks the palmolive dishsoap, touches knives and walks the counters and stovetops like its a playground.....

We had the upper pantry closet locked every night because my kids would wake up in the early am hours and raid the nosh closet..... bh, for the last few months (once pandas treatment stsrted kicking in,) we didn't need to lock it anymore.

Kids have free access to playroom and ALL toys.
For games they need to ask permission although it's physically accessible.
Same with crayons, markers, color pencils, color gel pens, paint, (all washable) scissors (we've had some pj and hair mishaps.... but thats part of childhood), glue, color paper, coloring books googly eyes, pompoms, pop sticks, random stickers, playdoh........ the latest is kinetic sand. Can make a mess indoor but much easier to clean up than playdoh, doesn't stick to the table or leave stains when trying to clean up.

There r books yiddish and english, cds and occasionally a music video or short nursery rhyme videos to tide over a rough patch.
Kids helping to cook - they LOVE helping. Makes them feel big and encourages responsibility.
Random hugs and kisses ALWAYS improves the mood and brings out positive behaviours in children.

In the backyard there is hammok, swings, slides, monkey bar, trampoline for some more stimulation.

crust

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 2:04 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

No I don't think I'm smarter.

Please show me where it says in the Torah about corporal punishment and how that translates to locking up a child in a room?

Thank you.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 2:30 pm

crust wrote:

No I don't think I'm smarter.

Please show me where it says in the Torah about corporal punishment and how that translates to locking up a child in a room?

Thank you.

I want to know how they locked a child in a TENT! LOL

#BestBubby

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 2:31 pm

crust wrote:

No I don't think I'm smarter.

Please show me where it says in the Torah about corporal punishment and how that translates to locking up a child in a room?

Thank you.

The famous posuk in mishlei "He who with-holds his rod, hates his son"

Beis Din gave Malkos to ADULTS.

So Hashem / Torah clearly supports corporal punishment (as well as fines).

I suggested time-out because so many are averse to a potch and many "experts"
have suggested substituting Time-Out.

dancingqueen

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 2:39 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Not 30 minutes locked alone in a room at 5 years old.

Oh, and I’m a millennial, and I think my generation is actually doing really well.

crust

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 2:39 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Ok. So to be clear- you are basing this on a posuk in mishlei. I thought you have something halacha in the Torah.

Do you follow every single mamar chazal that you hear so diligently?

And anyway, how does a rod translate to locking up a child in a room?

On the contrary we do have a halacha that if a child is locked up in a room alone on shabbos then you are allowed to be mechalel shabbos to take the child out.

In other words, if you locked your child up in a room and he is crying I am mechuyav to be mechalel shabbos and take him out of there.
And if it happens on a Sunday I am definitely mechiyuv and allowed to.

Bezdin gave malkos to adults, NOT to children. You know why? Because children would never remain with their faith if they would get these malkos.

crust

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 2:41 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I want to know how they locked a child in a TENT! LOL

They didn't. They didn't lock anyone up. And they didn't beat anyone.

Yes, there were explosive people always.
But there were soft spoken and well rounded people also.

There is a reason we pasken according to Bais Hillel.

Mama Bear

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 3:54 pm

"חושך שבטו שונא בנו"
does not necessarily mean an actual rod. It means disciplining.
There were a lot of things that were done in time of chazal which aren't done today anymore. We don't execute people. And we don't lock up people when they have leprosy. So we don't also have to beat up kids.
Discipline comes in many forms. And it doesn't have to mean locking a child in a room.
Discipline has to make sense. It has to be related to the infraction. "punishment" that doesnt fit the crime, turns the child even more enraged and you go into a power struggle that never ends, there's a rift between the parent and the child. It's a disaster.
Btw the same sefer mishlei also says חנוך לנער על פי דרכו. The child in this thread doesnt seem to understand consequences. So piling more consequences, that have no relation to the misbehavior, will not work.
Again, I really wish every mother would listen to Dina Friedman's Discipline Techniques. They make so much sense and they work. And they enhance the parent-child relationship.
As a parent, you have to ask yourself if you want to battle your child and emerge victorious, or do you want to live in harmony with your child and have the child feel SAFE in the home.

little neshamala

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 4:06 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

My Rav, who is a huge talmid chacham and quite well known, explained to my husband and myself that the "corporal punishment" example in mishlei is not meant to be taken literally, as in physical hitting. He showed my husband a bunch of sources and meforshim that I tuned out, but the bottom line was that the physical hitting "corporal punishment" is not at all what mishlei is referring to.
And he put his own 2 cents in that its an awful practice.
But its not a Torah recommended method of parenting

Last edited by little neshamala on Sun, Aug 16 2020, 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Mustard

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 4:06 pm

If we have learned anything from previous generations it is to surround a child with love and security so that he may thrive and flourish.
A scratch on a seed will produce an unhealthy plant.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 4:12 pm

The "rod" that was quoted, was referring to a shepherd staff. You don't beat your flock, you guide them on the path and make sure that they don't fall into the ravines. You do that by using the rod to nudge them right or left.

"Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me." King David, talking about gratitude for boundaries that are healthy.

A staff with a crook on the end was used to pull lambs up out of creeks and river banks if they fell in. At the time the lamb is terrified while the crook is around it's neck and pulling him, but he's soon happy to be back again among the flock, and nuzzling against his mother.

amother

White

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 4:34 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Yes, overwhelming majority of people who were born before 1970 love their parents,
love their children and have good relationships with other people.

This is so not true. Many of that generation are very bitter towards their parents and others. Many of them brought up their kids the same way they were brought up resulting in not the best relationship with their kids.

amother

Mustard

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 4:43 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

Yes. Especially because things like abuse and molestation were taboo. And good luck getting help for that.

amother

Blush

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 5:25 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

He can reach the sink. He’s 5 not 2.
My older kids shouldn’t need to hide their crafts the minute it gets home for fear of their sibling ruining it. This house is not childproof. Kids actually live here.
I probably can use better parenting skills. That’s why I’m asking advice here.

My daughter ripped up her siblings' crafts at that age. She has ADD. I'm not trying to diagnose a child, especially not over the internet, but it's normal for 5 year olds with ADD and there's not much to do other than wait for them to mature. Kids with ADD develop executive functioning a few years later than their peers.

Laiya

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 6:03 pm

OP, has your child ever been evaluated for OT? I'm wondering if he's sensory-seeking, because of playing with water and wanting to touch siblings' projects. That might also explain why his teachers have no issues with him, because he probably gets lots of sensory stimulation in school. You may want to google a sensory diet, and see if implementing anything has an effect (ex. his own headphones with pre-set music, an outdoor water or sand table if possible, weighted blanket for calming down, play dough, mini-trampoline, etc.)

Another possibility is he might be a super bright kid who needs to be kept busy and stimulated with lots of structure. That would also explain why he thrives in school. The key then is to plan ahead and have activities and projects to keep him busy. Not easy, some kids can sit for hours and entertain themselves but some just can't.

Btw have you asked his teachers directly if they see any impulsivity issues?

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