College ds feels embarrassed by something I did

amother

Pewter

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 7:59 pm

I don't see how this is at all comparable to fighting your children's battles for them. There's a difference between a teen/young adult having some sort of direct issue and the parent jumping in to rescue when the child should be the one deciding whether/how to handle things, and having an issue with the institution itself which has very little to do with the child directly. YU is more than just a school, it's the flagship institution of Modern Orthodoxy. If you have an issue with how something represents them, this is different than having a problem with your child's experience there (which would be the sort of thing that you should let them handle themselves). As both a tuition payer and an alum, you had every right to bring this to their attention, nothing to do with with your son directly. If he's embarrassed, that's because he's still at an age where pretty much everything your parents do is embarrassing. 5 years from now, he'll have the perspective to understand there was nothing to be embarrassed about.

amother

cornflower

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 8:32 pm

I just went to watch it. Her dress is not in line with the schools hashkafa. It is way tight. Not saying no one dresses that way but admin must always promote the hashkafa. The other students in the video were dressed to standard. If her dress was less sprayed on so you cant see the outline of each thigh in the front and her rear end in the back it would be a pass. This is not a case of overstepping by coddling, you are paying good money and have a right to bring misteps to the attention. Just maybe omit the part on what your ds thinks would have been just right.

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 9:34 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

You clearly have no idea of what’s YU’s hashkafa is. Unlike RW schools, YU/Stern’s hashkafa isn’t based on what their students wear.

amother

cornflower

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 10:30 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

You clearly have no idea of what’s YU’s hashkafa is. Unlike RW schools, YU/Stern’s hashkafa isn’t based on what their students wear.

Check ALL print/ digital media from them. They are very consistent. Its not about "tznius". Obviously every type goes there. And all types of dress. Its about not printing zexy as their official image. To put it in mashal form, their brand is lands end and american girl, not victorias secret and sports illustrated. Maybe haskafa was a bit off point. Marketing and branding may be more appropriate. And I see OP's point. Tznius isnt just about arbitrary tznius lines, its about image, I can show you girls in tank tops and shorts looking more wholesome than that dress.

Eta; I think I really do have an idea. Btw. The official stance is torah. And letting people have their own journey, not dictating or shoving rules down throats. But they do enforce yarmulkas in the beis medrash/ classrooms. Even if you aren't shomer shabbos. They do enforce no visitors of opposite genders to dorm rooms. I never compared it to rw anything. Torah u'mada is equally as torah observant as rw though.

And you know someone in marketing. Does that mean you also know of all the squabbles that go on all the time between the left & right ends in the school? Guess which end the Roshei yeshiva fall into? Doubt they want to brand the yeshiva zexy. And yes 95% of the male student body constantly see images and real life more than the stewardess dress. And that 5% probably grew up seeing it too. And 99% of the parent body, me included, is unphased by it. But it still does not fit the brand. OP is right about that. Zexy yeshiva is not a thing.

tstein

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 11:28 pm

What claim do you have on YU's dress when it follows their policies? There was absolutely nothing about that outfit that was out of line with YU's hashkafa. It was completely tzanua per their standards. That is how the vast majority of frum, modern orthodox girls at Stern dress. Additionally, and more specifically, that outfit is in line with YU's actual formalized dress code. As a graduate, I'm proud to say that I believe this is completely within the realm of my school's hashkafa, and just because you and some professor want YU to be more "frum" doesn't mean they have to be.

If you think in any way that YU's values are centered around ensuring that their precious young men don't watch something with that outfit in it, then you have grossly misunderstood YU's values. That's why he was embarrassed. Because even though he was the type to not watch a video like that, he obviously knows that YU does not consider this to be a stumbling block because this is not a YU value the way it is for you, and complaining about it makes you look like a Touro parent complaining that YU isn't more like Touro. The issue isn't that you didn't mind your own business, it's that you minded the wrong business...

amother

Slategray

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 11:36 pm

tstein wrote:

Op did not start this thread to debate if the female figure was right or wrong.
It was more about herself and her son.

DrMom

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 1:08 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

YU recently put out a video on facebook about their covid 19 rules. It was a bit tongue in cheek, but I felt it was totally inappropriate on many levels, but mostly because the main character was dressed as a provocative airline flight attendant going through the "covid rules" of safety on campus. I am not the most tzanuah person, but this character was wearing the tightest little dress and I was ahsamed for YU on so many different levels.

On what other many levels was this video inappropriate???

BTW, you may think the flight attendant's dress was too snug, but she was not doing anything "provocative" in this video.

Based on your description, I was expecting something totally different from what I eventually saw in this straightforward video about wearing masks and washing hands.

amother

Powderblue

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 1:13 am

DrMom wrote:

Me too. Come on. I went to Central for HS and then Stern and all my professors/teachers dressed like this (including my Judaic teachers). Some covered their knees, elbows, shirts approaching collarbone but outfits were always a bit snug.

Why did this bother you so much if your son goes to YU where this is the normal mode of dress?

SixOfWands

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 3:12 am

The issue is not whether there is something wrong with the woman's dress (IMNSHO there's not).

The issue is whether the parent of a college student should be contacting the school with respect to anything other than a situation in which their student is incapacitated, and therefore cannot contact the school himself.

The answer is a resounding NO.

Your student is an adult, and what you did would be no different than your parent calling your boss to complain about a work issue that you are having. Its embarrassing. And it infantilizes him in the eyes of the administration, and himself.

If the video bothered your student, you should have empowered HIM to contact the administration. You could have helped him figure out who to contact, and even helped him to write the letter. Teaching him to advocate for himself is one of the most important lessons you will teach him. And it should have started years ago.

amother

Violet

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 3:37 am

I am MO, a parent of teens (among them a HS senior), and a YU wife. I have not seen the video and am speaking from the tread, rather than having formed an option based on the video itself.I think it is 100 percent appropriate that you send an email. It is not about you advocating for your son, that he can't for himself. It is about as a tuition payer and supporter of the school, and as a parent who sent their child there under the pretense of a certain environment, that you have every right to speak up.
If your son felt that there was too much homework in a class or that an assignment wasn't graded as per the rubric indicated, then he needs to advocate himself and independently. He should speak up about this as well, but you 100% were appropriate in speaking up. Other parents and students should speak up as well. Thank you for being the first. I would not have hid it from my child as that would have been going behind his back and keeping secrets.

WhatFor

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 4:14 am

I think some people saying OP's response was great are not very familiar with MO cultural norms. In some communities parents are way more involved in their adult children's lives but in the MO community what OP described doing is socially inappropriate. It's the online equivalent of your parent showing up to your college and telling your professor what they think of your professor's class, based on a private discussion they had with you at home.

Of course OP's son was mortified. He goes to a school with other adults, is trying to create his own name and identity in the world, and now his mommy got involved in his personal relationships with rabbeim and school Dean behind his back, based on a personal conversation he had with her. He's worried that they may even have the impression that he sent his mommy to do this on his behalf. Yes, how humiliating.

It's useless to pretend that OP did this for herself and not her sons. She even said that she did it to show her sons that you can speak out about things and get a positive result. I'm not sure what the "positive" result here is from OP's perspective; the video is still online on YU's channel. Was the positive that the Dean appears to have responded respectfully? That's nice.

Even assuming OP did do it for herself, she still should be taking into account that she has children who can be affected by her actions. I may be very passionate about a cause, but if I'm going to reach out to institution that my DH or adult children attend to complain that they violated my values, you can bet I'm going to think twice and three times and then discuss it with them before doing things that can affect their working or school environment. And that's even if I wasn't going to bring them up in the discussion.

I'm a bit disturbed that OP's takeaway was "next time don't tell them when I do something like this". Bring on the tomatoes but I'm getting weird enmeshment and potentially controlling vibes (although the controlling vibes are influenced by OP taking up battle for this particular cause).

Editing to add: And I stand by what I said, even if OP is "supporting" YU by paying for her child's tuition. I'm assuming OP hasn't donated a wing. In the US, it is common for parents to support their children by paying tuition if they can afford it. This is precisely why FAFSA demands to see a parent's income before determining whether they qualify for financial aid. (It's the equivalent of Israelis buying their child an apartment when they get married.) Parents still don't typically get involved in their child's relationships with their Deans, etc. (barring extreme circumstances that involve lawsuits, etc). Unless you want your kid to be treated differently, don't do this.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 4:48 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

So note to self- mind my own business and if I don't- don't share what I have done so I don't embarrass my children.

I am sitting feeling sad... Thanks for letting me vent.

Oh wow. I missed this before. As Whatfor said, THIS is your takeaway?

There is enmeshment here indeed, and entitlement. Why are you entitled to interfere in your son's life like that? You really think it's ok next time as long as he doesn't find out about it?

Would you like your parents to interfere in your life?? And what's the point? What's the goal? To make a sanctimonious point about a woman who is dressed in a snug dress? (She is so slim you barely register it, until in one frame she turns slightly around. Form fitting, yes. Provocative? No, long wigs and stiletto heels at your local shul are far more provocative).

I guess I don't get why you would compromise your son's space and privacy for something so trivial. If that kind of thing bothers you, expend your energy fighting it on your own turf. Give neighborhood tznuis shiurim, bring speakers, start a whatsapp group for chizuk.

You say you are sad. But it seems you don't really empathize or understand your son at all, you are just sad because he is upset at you.

If you want to fix this, you need to promise to never write another scolding letter as long as your son is there. Respect his space and acknowledge that he feels violated.

(And obviously your letter didn't change a thing. They were nice to you because they are polite people and it's the diplomatic way of settling things. But the video has not yet been taken down, right? )