Masks are NOT proven to protect anyone or prevent anything

amother

Copper

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 8:15 pm

simcha2 wrote:

The premise of this article contains a huge fundamental error.

It assumes that the change in recommendation is political, whereas it is clear from journals that the change is to do with greater knowledge of the virus.

When covid was first described the mode of transmission was not thought to be airborne, it was thought to be surface transmitted. Which is why handwashing was so pushed.

It was only after it was studied further that it became clear that it is airborne- and at that point masks were pushed.

This is a novel virus, it is not surprising that the science is evolving.

But the politicization of masks, is, in my opinion, one of the greatest tragedies. And honestly, I'm not sure I can forgive those who have done that.

Are you saying that covid infects people in a different manner than the previous SARs coronaviruses that were studied? I don't know, I'm open to accepting that this might be the case, but it needs some basis.

Keep in mind, covid is a novel virus but coronaviruses are not new.

amother

Copper

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 8:31 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

You know why they're making masks mandatory? Because peer pressure is a thing. I've seen with my own eyes people who walk into a shul with a mask, and then when they see no one else is wearing one, they take it off. The same people will walk into a store with everyone wearing a mask, and will keep it on.

I take issue with articles that say that Sweden is doing great with no mask wearing. Like, what? Sweden is a small country with a small population that is homogenous, and they are an example of what herd immunity could look like. They are not a country that can point to a lack of masks and say, "see? We didn't get it!" There were countless articles that most people DID get it, they had higher rates than surrounding countries, and that many more stayed home until the majority did get it.

I was actually thinking Sweden is the best model, until I read recently that they suddenly have a surge of Covid positive cases. That's a bit confusing. But it ruined the article for me. Also, he took Dr. Klausner's words out of context. He said that "a mask may make you feel better, but you're missing the more important protective measures." He says that if you wear a mask in a crowded place, or you touch your face repeatedly and don't wash your hands after touching other surfaces and other people, then duh, the mask won't be so effective.

My child's school has mask wearing, and it's definitely decreased outbreaks.

I agree that what works in Sweden might not yield similar results in the US because Sweden is a tiny homogenous country.

This doesn't mean that Sweden's policy was inherently bad. There may be other reasons why neighboring Nordic countries had lower fatality rates. For example, it would be interesting to compare Sweden's nursing home policies with those of its neighbors.

For the bolded, policy is determined by how things work in practice, not just in a lab. If in practice, people don't wear masks properly, touch their faces more often while wearing them and don't keep their masks clean, is it a good policy to still require them?

As for the quotes in the article, those don't mean much other than someone's opinion. The peer-reviewed studies cited don't demonstrate a clear benefit or reduction in cases from mask wearing. If someone has seen a study that DOES demonstrate such benefit, please share.

amother

Copper

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 8:38 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

So for those that are saying that SD and masks don't help... I have a question for you.

Those communities - whether Jewish or not - that are relatively careful have just not gotten the virus (mostly). Those that are not careful are actually experiencing a large uptick of cases. How do you explain that?

Firstly, I wouldn't put masks and SD into the same category. Nor does the CDC, fwiw. If you look at the website, in determining whether one may have been exposed to someone with covid, it does not take into account whether either or both of you were or were not wearing a mask. The relevant factors are distance and time.

But to answer the question with that in mind, I don't know if that's true that places where there is no mask wearing have higher increases in cases. Assuming it is, I think that another factor, urban density, is probably the biggest indicator of how quickly the virus will spread which also supports the distancing.

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 8:48 pm

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

Great, so just SD. Why do you keep going on and on about masks not working? I'm not seeing much SD either.

And btw where I live there is no urban density, and guess what....

I have seen numerous studies showing that masks do work. I have not seen one - despite hearing over and over again by everybody who assures me that there are tons - of articles that prove that it DOESN'T work.

Oh, and I just checked the NYC's website. The neighborhoods with the least amount of cases, and deaths, are guess where? Manhattan. Is Manhattan also low urban density?

amother

Blush

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 8:50 pm

One thing that all should notice is how contagious this virus is. When it's flu season, you might know of one friend, maybe two that have the flu. The corona virus is spreading very fast with this uptick. On my block, every house on my side of the street has someone that tested positive recently. One was an asymptomatic teenager, the rest had varying symptoms. The rest of my neighborhood also has lots of cases. One neighbor in his 50's needed oxygen.

Not saying this to create any panic, but it is a call to action. And masks and social distancing seems to help stop the spread. Every interaction is an opportunity for spread and the chances increase exponentially when there is no mask or social distance.

We need to decrease the numbers so that the yeshivas, shuls, schools, businesses, etc. can be open safely. Let's all do it, please!

cbsp

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 8:53 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Have you been to Manhattan recently?

youngishbear

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 8:53 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Out of curiosity, does Manhattan have heavy residential density? Because many companies are still operating at reduced capacity and working from home. The commercial density is not back to pre-Covid levels.

Mothers

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 8:55 pm

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

This. Please!!!

amother

Copper

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 9:28 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Not getting where you're coming from. I've only made one point in this thread, which is that the actual science is not settled with respect to mask wearing. I posted an article that lists quite a few actual studies, so I'm also not sure why you said you haven't seen any.

You, and everyone, are free to draw your own conclusions as to which side the science favors more heavily. But this has not been shown to be a clear-cut, black and white matter scientifically.

amother

Copper

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 9:30 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Please cite a source for this. Countries that imposed mask mandates did not see a correlation with lowering the numbers of new cases or even peaks in death rates.

amother

Cerise

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 9:31 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Why is everybody talking about it like it's a given fact that masks are a de facto prevention/protection against the virus?
It isn't.

Where I live, the graph showing the number of new cases each day was going up, increasing each day. After they enacted a law requiring masks, the numbers started coming down. I doubt it was a coincidence.

And this is what Rav Kanievsky said in the name of the Mishna Berurah about wearing masks even when the mageifah is not as bad:

-------------

Rav Levenstein continued: “Someone mentioned to HaRav Chaim Kanievsky that he was wearing a mask due to the health ministry’s instructions and HaRav Chaim responded: ‘Why are you saying the government? Say the Mishna Berurah [obligates us].'”

“‘Which Mishna Berurah?’ the man responded. HaRav Chaim opened a Mishnah Berurah to Siman תקנ”ד, where it’s written that if there’s a difficult situation in a country, there’s a shaila whether to fast on Tisha B’Av or not.

“‘In the Biur Halacha, it’s written: ‘If someone wants to fast when the disease isn’t raging [the immediate danger has passed but the disease is still lurking], he should be advised and warned that he shouldn’t leave his house at all. When he does go out he should be forced to put something over his nose and mouth and a little grass [he calls the grass miata].'”

Harav Levinstein continued: “So Harav Chaim told him: ‘So why are you saying the government [obligates you]? Say the Mishnah Berurah. At a time when there’s a mageifah even when it’s not in full force, you must wear a mask.'”

SOURCE:
https://www.theyeshivaworld.co......html

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 9:31 pm

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

So, after over 200,000 people dead in the US alone, you're waiting to see whether masks and social distancing work - in a few years from now, when the studies are all referenced, cross referenced and peer reviewed? Or maybe - just maybe - you can say - doctors say that social distancing and masks help. Maybe I'll try a little harder to follow guidelines on the off chance (seriously) that these measures do work?

Which one is your approach?

amother

Copper

Mon, Oct 12 2020, 11:17 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Are you saying it's worth it to wear masks just in case they work? Perhaps, although I was making a different point; that many studies published in peer reviewed scientific journals, yes, studies already previously concluded, demonstrate masks' lack of effectiveness.

As for myself, since you asked, I do sd, wear masks in public and make sure my family does the same. I do it out of courtesy for others, not because I think it makes any difference (the masks).

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 3:06 am

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

I think the young people in town don't know how to respect rabbanim anymore. Even the gadol hador.

Its really sad.

DrMom

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 3:25 am

I'm going to refuse to cover my mouth when I cough unless someone proves this helps not spread germs. I don't see why it's so important. Germs are tiny; my hand/elbow/tissue can't block them.

I'm not going to use carseats anymore. What an inconvenience! Totally unnecessary if you just avoid accidents. Why doesn't the govt help us drive better instead of forcing us to use carseats? Ditto for seatbelts.

Also, I read on the internet somewhere that smoking does NOT cause lung cancer. It's just a plot to destroy the tobacco companies. I'm going to light up anywhere I please.

imorethanamother

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 3:31 am

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

Feel free to PM me for my experience working at congregate care facilities and finding a positive covid case. If you don’t wear PPE, it spreads. We can literally see the evidence on video footage and trace it back to the infected staff member who infected others. Masks and gloves work. That’s how we can have a positive case and test everyone else and have them remain negative.

I hope this makes you feel better about your sacrifice.