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amother

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:22 am

I was having a hashkafa discussion with ds, who just turned 4 as we are preparing for shabbos. We were talking a while, then I asked him "Who takes care of us?", he said Hashem. Then I asked him "and who comes to our house on Shabbos?", so okay, the right answer would be the Shabbos Queen or the 2 malachim who come Friday night. Yes, he answered "Daddy".

At moments like these, I just question everything. What in the world are we doing?! The world is not about making a living. It should be about life, torah, mitzvos. Dh does not work too long hours but he leaves at 7 am and returns at 7 pm if you count in his commute.

What do you think? Is this the way?

Ruchel

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:25 am

money is needed to afford a life, especially a kosher life.
Now, depending on how you are raised, your values, your ideas... you need no, a few or a lot of extras to be happy, which is also very important in order to live well.

Now, is it the way for you to go? only you and dh know.

amother

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:40 am

I really felt SO sad when he said it and I do not think I will tell my husband because it will break his heart. DH has no training to do anything but what he does and has a decent job for that. We live very simply and have no money for extras as it is. But I dream of something like a small shop that can let dh be around to raise the children too. That he can be around as they grow. For breakfast, lunch and dinner and bedtime at least. But we can't be an island in middle of society, can we?

Ruchel

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:42 am

If you can make it work, don't feel bad about being different from all the others. If the project is realistic (about tuition, university, everything you need), go for it.

amother

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:43 am

I cant dream its realistic or manageable, but I wish.

amother

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:45 am

Ruchel, thank you for posting to me, it is really bothering me right now. I also mean to discuss the hashkafa part of this too. Raising children, family values, not make any practical decisions.

Mama Bear

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 11:52 am

amother, this is the reason my 2 1/2 year old has an 8:30 pm bedtime - so that he knows his father not as a Shabbos Totty but the father that comes home very night!

amother

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 12:02 pm

Don't dream about a small shop as the answer. I can tell you from experience, you would see your husband even less.

amother

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 12:47 pm

amother wrote:

Don't dream about a small shop as the answer. I can tell you from experience, you would see your husband even less.

she's right. when you're self-employed, you're not your own boss--every customer is your boss. when dh was a salaried worker, he would come home around 8.00 or 9.00, even 10.00 if things were hectic. Ever since he's been self-employed, 10.00 is early. There were times I'd be afraid he wouldn't be home before I had to leave for work, and a few times he actually slept in the office.

Thank G-d for Shabbes. If it weren't for Shabbes, I don't think we'd see dh for weeks at a stretch.

chaimsmom

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 1:58 pm

amother wrote:

she's right. when you're self-employed, you're not your own boss--every customer is your boss.

Yep. And if you're not working, you're not making money. No paid time off, no paid sick days, no paid benefits at all.

amother

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 2:14 pm

my dh works long hours too and there are many nights were he doesnt get to see the baby at all when hes awake. but I know that we need to do this in order to make a living. it is sad Sad

- but such is life
I can tell you that my father also worked really long hours. but I always knew he loved me and now we are very close. so even if daddy cant be around all the time like mommy - children know when theyre loved.

cassandra

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 2:21 pm

amother wrote:

Last year I heard R. Zweibel speak, and he told the story of why he started working as a lawyer for the Agudah when he had been working in a big law firm. He said that one Rosh Hashana he was walking home from shul with his young son and he asked his son what he davened for. His son answered that he davened for two things: "For Moshiach to come, and that your office should burn down." He then decided to make the switch to a less demanding job.

This really struck a cord with me since my husband works very long hours too. I don't necessarily think though, that reducing hours can work for everyone. What you do have to do is make sure that your kids understand WHY daddy is gone for so long (he has to make money so that we can live in this house, so that you can go to school and learn TOrah, etc.) It is also important that your husband spends as much time as he can with your children, and that when he is home he is actively engaged with them as much as humanly possible. I think as a wife you have to make sure (in a loving way, of course) that your husband is maximizing his time with the kids when he is around. Occasionally my husband will complain that when he comes home from a long week I "throw him into the pit" so to speak of dealing with the kids, but ultimately he is appreciative, because his doing these things (feeding, bathing, playing) is really what makes them have a wonderful relationship even though he isn't home so much.

In our family, my husband doesn't have to leave to work until about 8:30 so he spends time with the kids in the morning. At a certain point my kids started waking up really early, and I think part of the reason was to spend time with him before he left-- they would hang out with him while he was getting ready for shul, etc. They also know that if they ever need him he can be reached by phone, so that they feel like he is "there" for them, even if he isn't physically there. I also keep him very up to date about what is going on in their lives, so they feel like he knows what is going on.

justanothermother

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 3:11 pm

I recall a story vaguely about a child who called his father the Kiddush man, because that was the only time he saw him.

chocolate moose

Fri, Feb 22 2008, 4:21 pm

my coworker was a tax attorney and his kidsonly saw him on shabobs. one time he came home early and the kids ran to turn off the tv set.

sad

freidasima

Sat, Feb 23 2008, 12:27 pm

I don't know how sad it is, it's just normal. What about those homes where both parents work and you have a babysitter until late? What about those kids in Israel who are in a maon until their big sister picks them up because mommy is still out working and daddy is working as well? And two parents get home at 8 or 9 or later because it is a family business or store and both have to be there?

Be grateful that at least you are home. There were years when both dh and I were working long hours and although it was never that bad that he was called "the kiddush man", I can remember times like that with my own father when I was younger. Lucky that my mother only worked part time when I was young, because I also had grandparents and other family around, but that was the division. Mommies worked part time or when kids were in school, Daddies came home late. You got to see them when you got older. And it wasn't for luxuries, that was what life was like...

And we all grew up and we all love our fathers and have great respect for them. It's part of the growing up process. And yes, thank G-d for shabbos and in America and the rest of the world, for weekends, when children get to see their fathers more!

amother

Sat, Feb 23 2008, 4:07 pm

It's difficult when Shabbat is the main time your husband is round for the kids, but on the other hand how wonderful that your son looks forward to Shabbat and his father being there! That's the part to remember. As someone else said on this thread, a child knows if he is loved, and carries that forward. My daughter knows that my husband is there for her especially on Shabbat, even if she doesn't see him much during the week.

sarahnurit

Sat, Feb 23 2008, 5:18 pm

I think that there are priorities in life, and that family is the first thing,
Now, many things seem necessary when we have them, but when they are not there we easily forget about them, as long as we are doing what we like and why not? follow our dreams...
Many families nowadays don't have kids because they say that they can't afford them...well from personal experience I can say that it's not a good excuse ,and it's possible to adjust the budget to fit kids into the plan...
I think that kids should be able to see both parents as much as possible, and that if you would open a store maybe you could work together with you r husband so that you could spend more time with him too...

Marion

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 2:20 am

We have the opposite problem...my 2 year old has taken to waking at 5:30 (my alarm used to go at 5:45) so he can see his Eema in the morning. Otherwise, I'M the Shabbat parent. DH drops him off at daycare, picks him up, and plays with him until I get home. We alternate nights for bedtime routine. Unfortunately, me working less is not an option, because some things are BASIC necessities, and DH doesn't seem able to come close to providing them. A roof over our heads and food on the table. We won't talk about heating in the winter, water, hot water, electricity. And food on the table doesn't mean take out 3 times a week either. just before anyone asks. We don't have a car, we don't have a TV, and at least 8 months a year we don't use the dryer either. We switched to cloth diapers because it costs less to launder them than it costs to buy disposables, and because we "inherited" them, so there was no huge initial outlay. Almost everything the kids own has been gifts (thank G-d for overly generous friends and family), and for ourselves, well, we just wait until something has fallen apart before we replace it.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 3:14 am

Before my divorce I worked for dh's company on the computer at home. Our youngest was 1 1/2. Seldom did my ex leave his office. One of the other employees, a man was asked to pick up my work and go over certain things with me. He was normally at our house for around an hour, sometimes 2. We kept the door open and were very careful about yichud.

One motzei Shabbos our little one took Abba's hat and brief case (wearing obnly a diaper) and headed for the door. My ex said who are you and our ds said <workers>. My ex was so hurt. He knew his son saw his employee more than himself.

Kids little lives go so fast and you never realize when you are busy having them, but after BM the clock goes into hyperdrive. No amt of money is worth a kid growing up w/o a parent.

freidasima

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 3:39 am

This is a different subject but it is beginning to remind me about all the discussions about working mothers versus SAHM...not fathers, mothers.

Let's not forget that with all our wonderful intentions of wanting to raise our own children 24/7 it isn't often possible financially. Men and women work, not for luxuries but often for necessities. Yes, one's person's necessity is another's luxury and no one has the right to judge if that person is not asking us for help to keep their lifestyle.

But Imaonwheels, not all mothers can work at home, many have jobs that include commute, and they work to help put food on the table, to pay the mortgage for a three and a half room apartment, and all the rest...and children are raised in day care centers, long school day yeshivas, and grandparents, caretakers, whatever.

It's not always that different than having a a mother around who is so busy taking care of the physical (diapering the new baby, running after the toddler, cleaning, cooking, shopping) that they don't have time to sit down with their children, have no nerves for it as they are frazzled from all the child and house work. Physical presence isn't everything. And let's not take everything our kids do at 2 at 4 and at 10 serioiusly. What about those families with 10 kids where it isn't the mother but the older sister who raises the younger kids? I see those all the time in Yerushalayim and elsewhere...

Quality time isn't quantity time. But it sure is better than my great grandfather who had to travel in Eastern Europe as a salesman and came home once a month to his family...he managed to father ten children but he sure wasn't there to see them grow up. And this was while his wife ran the store and wasn't home either. Who raised the children? They raised themselves according to my grandmother...neighbors, aunts, that was the shtetl.

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